Famous men and surrogacy

I found this old thread about Mermaids transgender "power couple" campaigning to change UK surrogacy laws.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3496126-Mermaids-power-couple-Hannah-Jake-Graf-say-surrogacy-laws-must-be-changed-to-

"A transgender couple have shared their concerns about the surrogacy process in the UK.

Hannah, a British army officer who has served in Afghanistan, was born male and transitioned five years ago. Jake, an actor who recently featured in Keira Knightley’s new film ‘Colette’, transitioned from female to male a decade ago.

Speaking on ITV’s ‘Lorraine’ today, Hannah and Jake Graf announced they are ready to have children. The pair, who married in March 2018, have been together for three years.

“We are really, really eager to become parents,” Jake said.

However, the pair’s concerned the UK’s surrogacy laws might make the process more difficult, because surrogates are not legally-bound to give away their baby when born. They are the child’s legal parent at birth. Instead, according to Gov.uk, legal parenthood can be transferred by parental order or adoption after the child is born.

“The law is set up so you can’t put anything into stone prior to the baby being born, so there’s a worry from both sides,” Hannah added. “Intended parents like Jake and I are worried that a potential surrogate could get attached to the baby and not want to give it over. "

“Obviously, a huge scare for us. But it’s the same for the surrogate because they don’t want to be left with the child and all the legal responsibility.”

On the process, Jake added: “[It’s] terrifying. All our friends are trying and we can’t try. So we are in this sort of weird space of hoping that some kind stranger, who will hopefully become a friend, will come to us and say ‘I would like to work with you and I would like to help you’.
It is the ultimate gift, I can’t imagine anything more selfless than wanting to give someone the joy of a child, which is something I’ve wanted for so many years.”

So, they are both transgender and can't have children because of medication or surgery, or don't want to because they're trans. Whether they can use their own genetic material I don't know... And they're worried the surrogate mother might get attached to the baby and not want to hand the baby over.

from the trans woman Hannah:

"Hannah added. “Intended parents like Jake and I are worried that a potential surrogate could get attached to the baby and not want to give it over."

Imagine wanting to change the law to forcibly take the baby away in that scenario...Horrific.

My response in that thread: "Only selfish narcissists who have no thought nor care for women would want this"

They claim the surrogate would also be worried they'd be left with the baby and want law change. Really?

I suppose the explosion in numbers of transgender people, specifically kids and young people medically transitioning , leading to infertility, and trans men not wanting to carry their child because of dysphoria, will lead to the greater demand for women to be surrogates. Oh dear. This couple represent Mermaids, has this been a campaign issue for Mermaids and other such groups then?

The egg that has been used is a donor egg, biologically that is the mother.

Right: So again, you would happily tell a woman pregnant via donor eggs that she was not the biological mother of the child she gestates, gives birth to, and raises?

Can I ask you how you would describe such a woman, since clearly you don't consider her to be the mother?

@IcedPurple You know what, it would be so much more interesting if I were Bosch or Zanussi fan assisted wouldn’t it?!

Joking aside, I completely understand that we all have a point of view & I simply came on here to answer some points that were posted on this thread.

I’m not “poor” or in “financial difficulties” I have quite a well paid job which I have held for quite a few years. I have a string of qualifications to my name I have amassed over the years.

I first, 6 years ago wanted to donate my eggs. However the law changed around this time & if my eggs were successfully used a child born from my donation would be able to contact me years down the line. I didn’t want this, I have my beautiful daughters with my husband & I have no desire to add to my brood.

I concentrated on my career & stumbled across surrogacy. I researched the ins & outs. Checking ways in which it could go wrong before I sat down with my husband & extended family to discuss it all.

When I met my IP’s it was not with the intention to be a surrogate for them, our surrogacy journey was born out of love & friendship. They are both fantastic men, with respectable jobs. Who have the undeniable desire to be fathers & have a family of their own. Not through adoption, they wanted a biological link to their child. The egg that has been used is a donor egg, biologically that is the mother. And yes granted in the eyes of the law till the parental order is granted I will be classed as the birth mother. HOWEVER, this by no means makes me the babies mother. Yes there will be elements, traces of you wish of me whirling round in the baby however again this does not make me their mother.

I am simply a woman (grown at that) who has chosen to do something truly wonderful for her equally wonderful friends.

And to answer the question someone asked about maternity leave etc... I will be leaving work at 38 weeks. After baby is born providing there are no complications I will return to work 2 weeks afterwards. All my previous labours have been trouble free so I see no reason as to why I would need to take any further time from work. My work is mainly office based so there will be no over exertion on my behalf. Thankfully my place of work also believes I am doing a wonderful thing & they have said I can extend the time off I take if feel the need to.

I’m not here to argue, simply add a different point of view for you all to consider.

@Surrosmith13 - if a heterosexual (or lesbian) couple use a donor egg to conceive, is the woman who gives birth the mother? Or does she have 'no biological link' to the baby?

Do you think then that the woman who donated the egg is the biological mother? If that's the case, are you and the men you are giving your baby either in touch with her or able to put your baby in touch with her when they turn 18?

This also made me sad. Hopefully it was a misjudged photo for the fans and behind the scenes there is a lot more going on to help with the transition. 4th trimester is a thing. I expect their daughter will be well loved and cared for but it is a rather painful picture.

It’s not my child? If it were mine then my egg would of been used. It wasn't

Right. So according to you if a woman becomes pregnant via IVF using donor eggs, then that is not her child.

OK.

It’s not my child? If it were mine then my egg would of been used. It wasn’t 🤷🏽‍♀️

’Perhaps even more importantly, I'm curious to know if those of you who have voiced such anti-Surrogacy views, have ever actually met a surrogate, or met parents whose child has been born through surrogacy, or indeed an actual person who was born through surrogacy?
Of course, each of us is entitled to our opinions on any matter. However, righteous indignation that lacks any meaningful experience of an issue, simply comes across as prejudice and discrimination against people whose lifestyles we don't understand. Thus, such opinion is ignorant and offensive.’

Your shut-down attempt to dismiss posters’ opinion doesn’t make sense to me, GardenMan.

It’s ludicrous (and we could equally say, ‘offensive’ to us, if you prefer to frame things in terms of ‘offence’ in how you weight the validity of arguments...) to suggest that women on here have ‘righteous indignation that lacks any meaningful experience’.

Lacks meaningful experience? Are you kidding? Why do you think it’s OK to push aside the opinions of very many of the women posting about this issue, many of whom are mothers, often several times over? We have been pregnant, birthed children or are bringing up children right now, doing so in families of all shapes and sizes. How is that not deeply relevant meaningful experience? We know at first hand the intense emotional and physical needs of newborn and small babies for us, their mothers.

We know how all-consuming new motherhood is and how deeply unprepared for a legal battle with anyone, most of us would be in the early weeks after a birth.

We know what birth injuries are like. Some of us know what going through IVF is like. We know how hard the expectations of those around us can be to handle when TTC, in pregnancy, in labour and the early weeks after the birth.

It’s practically a running joke on here how many of us have thought one thing before the baby arrived and then thought something completely different once the baby arrived.

We get asked searching questions by our kids about themselves to help them make sense of their world and their family, the genetic, biological, or family or friends relationships that are meaningful for them.

We know the search for identity that our teens and young adult children go through. Many of us have adopted our kids, or are adoptees ourselves, and we also have meaningful experiences related to that, which inform our views on surrogacy. I could go on and on.

That is all highly relevant information and experience and that is what leads many of us to form opinions on this issue. So I’m not really fussed if you feel that people talking about their most fundamental life experiences ‘simply comes across as prejudice and discrimination against people whose lifestyles we don't understand.’

The fact you hadn't even considered as ‘meaningful’ or relevant, mothers’ perspectives, shows that this is a set of issues where maybe your own understanding of pregnancy and birth or child-rearing is maybe a bit lacking or maybe your ‘discrimination’ in what views you value is a bit evident?
(I’m not sure about describing having or bringing up kids as a ‘lifestyle’ by the way)

For the record I have met parents who have had their babies through surrogacy and they have been really lovely people. I’m not sure why that’s relevant though.

My concerns around this issue primarily come from having been pregnant myself and the reality of looking after newborns but I recognise that there are a lot of different relevant perspectives. Most people would say that it’s better to try and listen to each other and to work out what’s in the best interests of children, rather than try to shut down informed discussions about that because some adults might be offended.

As for me saying I’m just the oven - I am? I’m not the mother.

Again I say: Every single human that has ever lived has had a mother. If you insist you are not this child's mother - despite gestating and birthing it - then who is? Because some has to be.

I have no biological link to the baby, not at all

Oh, I understood that you were carrying the baby in your body and will later expel it from your body. I understood that your bloodstream and oxygen supply were entwined with that of the baby and that you are creating almost every cell of that baby from your own body. All of which are undeniably biological processes.

Are you now saying that you are not doing any of that? You're no more than a Bosch or a Zanussi fan assisted?

I have no biological link to the baby, not at all

your body is currently keeping your baby alive

regardless of the egg that was used, you and your baby will share genetic material

I do work actually @NotTonightJosepheen 😂 full time - and have done since finishing my education. I am a 35 year old woman, I know exactly what I’m doing.
I call my IP’s “the boys” as a term of endearment. It’s something nice, you know how you have pet names for your friends? Which they both very much are.

As for me saying I’m just the oven - I am? I’m not the mother. I have no biological link to the baby, not at all 🤷🏽‍♀️

No @OhHolyJesus they have used a donor egg. I don’t want to be a TS (traditional surro)

Great if you just want to pat yourselves on the back about how right you are. Not so great if you want to get others on board.

To repeat: You seem to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of online discussions. They are just that, discussions. They are not there to get the 'average casual brower' who just so happens to land on the Feminist page of MN 'on board'.

Or perhaps you are being obtuse?

@FannyCann

Thank you for this information. Yeh, I don't like the sound of that. I'll respond to the consultation tomorrow.

"One of the reasons there is so much discussion about this on Mumsnet is the law Commission Consultation on new surrogacy laws in the uk. Proposals which seek to remove the protections which the law currently provides.
A key tenet is drawing up contracts which will make the commissioning parents the legal parents at birth, sweeping away the current law which ensures the surrogate mother and her partner are the legal parents at birth.

This also reduces protections to the baby as a post birth application for transfer of parental rights involves closer scrutiny of the commissioning parents with the best interests of the child at the centre.

This directly contravenes recommendations from the United Nations which seek to protect women and babies.

There are just four days left to respond to the consultation. I urge you to do so. Surrogacy in the UK at present is well regulated and closely monitored but new laws will open up the commercial market. They recommend lifting the current ban on advertising for instance.

There is good explanation here as well as a draft reply you can download and send. (It is very time consuming and complex replying thoughtfully to all 118 questions).

nordicmodelnow.org/2019/08/30/how-to-respond-to-the-uk-surrogacy-consultation-in-10-easy-minutes/ "

Are any of them seeking to get the U.K. law changed @DeusIbiEst? No.

Just to be crystal clear - I don't care what sex the parents who use surrogates are. I don't care what race their are. I don't care about their racial identity, education, where they live, what their sexual identity is.

Surrogacy is wrong.

Well if you’re that bothered Deus, you do the recruitment

We’ll be over here having a chat

Just pondering on the famous men do it part of this thread, I can't think of a single famous woman who has done it. Single as in, not in a relationship

What has being single got to do with it? The men here are a couple.

You haven't heard of Lucy Liu, Sarah Jessica Parker, Kim Kardashian or Nicole Kidman? All used surrogates.

And I think you misunderstand the nature of this, and all other, threads: it's a discussion about the topics raised by the OP. It's not about making a 'case' to appeal to 'your average, casual browser', whoever he or she is

Great if you just want to pat yourselves on the back about how right you are. Not so great if you want to get others on board.

It's not about making a 'case' to appeal to 'your average, casual browser', whoever he or she is

I agree, I’m not up on all the facts about issues discussed on the FWR board but i read and learn

I’m a bit... well bored I suppose, of people popping on the board to tell the usually well read and well informed FWR regulars (not me...and it doesnt matter if you feel they are neither informed or read) to temper their attitude and language for people who may or may not exist

Surrosmith13

Assuming the posts’ genuine not a really excellent troll...

Why can’t you be involved as a third parent to the kid? Why the insistence that you’re just an incubator? I don’t see why this couldn’t be a totally ethical blended family situation rather than trying to claim your specific case means therefore that strangers should pay women to incubate their embryos

By the way, something that increasingly bothers me about reproductive technology is that like with fossil fuels / carbon, a cost is paid from the buyer to the seller, but no cost is ever paid to society.

We really do not need everyone who wants kids to have them. We need to better support those who are born naturally. Maybe it would be better to start disencentivizing reproductive technologies in general. At the very least, let’s be more honest about the true costs to the planet and society, as we are starting to do with carbon, eating meat, etc.

Oh AliasGrape

not a lot else to say to that lovely. I hope things work out for you

Just pondering on the famous men do it part of this thread, I can't think of a single famous woman who has done it. Single as in, not in a relationship.

Lucy Liu had a son by 'gestational carrier' (ugh) 4 years ago. I believe she is the genetic mother and I also think shewas single at the time he was born.

AliasGrape, thanks for sharing that. I am so sorry.

The average, casual browser sees this thread. They aren't going to search for other threads. To an average, casual browser it looks anti- male and anti- gay men. That really helps your case.

Do 'average, casual browers' just happen upon the Feminism board?

And I think you misunderstand the nature of this, and all other, threads: it's a discussion about the topics raised by the OP. It's not about making a 'case' to appeal to 'your average, casual browser', whoever he or she is.

It was just about men because there's a trend of men who are pushing to have the U.K. law changed.

And also men can't have children.

So gay men, like many couples, will have to adopt if the want children.

But as male entitlement seems to demonstrate, they don't want to do that. Lance Black and Tom Daley don't even know which of them is the biological father of their child. Well I'm sure they do now because it will probably be fairly obvious.

Where is consideration of the child in that?

I feel like I bang on about this a lot but my mother died in childbirth. I’m not that old. Death in childbirth is a real thing, a very real risk that happens today, here in the developed world even with modern medicine etc.

I was raised by extended family members, the woman who raised me was incredible I thought of her as my mum but also always knew the truth. I was supported and loved and couldn’t have wished for a better mum. I would have argued fiercely that my back story, whilst sad, didn’t have any lasting impact on me and that I loved the parents who raised me and would never have wanted it to be any different.

It took a lot of personal issues and pain, and a lot of therapy to begin to understand the impact that not having my birth mother, the woman whose voice, smell, heartbeat etc was all I knew, raise me. I did a lot of research into attachment and found a lot of it explained some things within my own life.

I wasn’t a tragic case or anything, I’ve grown up pretty well balanced and reasonably successful. I was very loved and I adored the mum who brought me up and feel lucky to have had her for a mum, as well as my adoptive siblings who I still have very close relationships to. But I really suffered, even without realising it, from the separation from my birth mother.

It was unavoidable in my case, my mother died, but even though I find it impossible to wish for a family other than the one I know and love, I still know that me being raised by someone other than my birth mother caused harm. Any child being raised by anyone other than their birth mother will cause harm - sometimes it’s the lesser of two evils and sometimes it’s unavoidable but I don’t think it should ever be brought about deliberately and certainly not in a commercial arrangement. I can’t imagine there not being a huge impact on the mother, but even if she somehow escapes consequences and thinks surrogacy the best and most life enhancing thing she’s ever done, there absolutely are consequences for the child.

I’m desperate to be a mother myself, fertility treatment hasn’t worked so far and our chances are pretty slim. I am not sure, despite being sort of adopted myself and working with many adopted children (or perhaps because of that), that I have what it takes to become an adoptive parent. I still couldn’t contemplate contracting a surrogate - as much as I can 100% understand the desire to.