Famous men and surrogacy

I’m just giving birth to my friends child because unfortunately they weren’t born with vaginas

No. They cannot conceive.

surro I hear that you have rationalised this to be doing the right and hugely magnanimous thing for 'friends'.

How do you rationalise the harms that taking a baby away from its mother at or shortly after birth causes a baby?

I think this must be hard to hear, but in the world of adoption and fostering it is a very well known syndrome that can commonly bring huge issues through adolescence as the developing child tries to emotionally mature against a backdrop of broken psychological attachment?

A baby knows its mother. It knows its mothers body instinctively, better than the dm herself, as it uses her heartbeat and breathing to help regulate its own erratic breathing after birth, and as a huge source of comfort and further stable attachment. It can smell and taste its mother. Immediately recognise her voice which has been there throughout the development of its sense, and everything that baby is has come from the mother's body.

It is not an egg being hatched, this is a real baby, and its fully aware when its ripped away from its only source of attachment to that point. Its first milk, vital colostrum, and the fourth trimester, also a vital part of its attachment development where all it does is move from inside the layers of muscles and skin, to outside, where its still close to mother's heart beat, skin, breathing, smell, and reassurance.

Not for nothing is skin to skin a profound experience and widely used for preemy babies to help them survive.

Its this kind of depth of knowledge, i.e. reality, that makes surrogacy such an awful proposition. Its creating, deliberately, awful issues. Issues for the baby. Theres no right for anyone to do that. There are enough issues already in the world for babies to grow up through.

Then there's the psychological and physical issues for the DM. These are your babies, that your body is growing. That your frankly, naïvety, seems to be arguing the case for.

This is a much more complex process than the simplistic view you have of it.

Baby suffers, dm suffers (but hopefully has the psychological and physical resilience to overcome), not exactly a win win is it?

The only winners are the people who have bought a baby, also without any insights into the complexities of realities.

Exactly as that picture portrays. Blithe ignorance, happy greedy people got what they wanted.

No surprise indeed that law change is being sought.

People like you surro are handing over womens rights on a plate to men with your attitudes.

I wont apologise if you don't like that we're not all fawning and grateful because you so magnanimously, again, came to bestow and share your huge wisdom and knowledge to us by simply answering some questions (without any curiosity to actually learn anything from anyone else, despite the breadth and depth of knowledge on here, not to mention personal experience).

Its no accident that this is currently law. The baby is bonded to its birth mother.

You can give your baby away to anyone, but doing that doesn't alter what that does to the baby who's mother you indeed are.

Why is this all about the poor menz...again!

Jeez...this subject couldn't be more about babies and women!

@NotTonightJosepheen I am born & bred in England. English is very much my first language however I can revert back to my secondary school times & converse slightly in German & French. Can’t say I’m 100% British though sorry - my Ancestry DNA profile shows that I have roots splattered all over Europe. Maybe that’s what you were attempting to dig at? The “Boys” have British passports however the strongest Irish accents I have ever heard - I have said “what?” quite a few times over the years 😂 So to answer your question - there will be no problem when Brexit (finally) gets sorted.

@3timeslucky They at the time we’re living/working where same sex marriage wasn’t recognised as people who could adopt. Which is awful but that’s just the way some places are 🤷🏽‍♀️ I’ve always been involved with their discussions because I’m their friend & they valued my opinion & thoughts on things. The same way I speak to friends & ask their opinions on things in my life. We all live in the UK now so there will be no issues for when the PO is granted ☺️

@OhHolyJesus I don’t want to share publicly no, however I will say that maybe Eltons surrogate lived in London (I do not) so the cost of living will be higher there. Expenses cover a whole host of things. Mine I would say are on the lower side as the only thing I felt that I needed what new maternity clothes (as I said previously my family is complete so I gifted ass these items on) and that’s it! Obviously you may know (or not) that a new fresh will to cover the surrogacy period is covered by the “boys” as are the payments for my life insurance x

I'm a bit confused by your situation Surrosmith.

Me too. It's an awfully Hallmark-based narrative for all these complexities that are gradually being revealed.

Following Lass's suggestion, I coated up 9 months 24/7, with time and a half for overnight and weekends, at NMW. It's comfortably over 100k. Plus I would say that commissioning parents should also have to pay for private healthcare during pregnancy and birth (so the NHS doesn't have to subsidise them). Plus insurance cover of one million for downstream health needs after birth/life insurance should the surrogate die.

UN hazard pay is about £1,200 per month. Add that in.

It is chilling isn't Barbara so much of this case chilled me to my bones. The way the mother was spoken to and about was like she was 'disposable' to me. It wasn't at all like what Surro describes and whilst the same sort of risks apply Surro has private health care and a good relationship with the couple.

(On that note I don't know what happened to that woman who had a similar situation as Surro that Grace Dent interviewed, I wonder if she is still close friends with the couple who she couldn't produce a baby for. The programme ended with their choice to go elsewhere...I wonder if the friendship survived this...)

Surro would you mind saying publicly what your expenses payment will be and what it covers? I ask as I know my pregnancy didn't cost as much as the 5 figures payments paid to surrogates but then I didn't have IVF so I genuinely don't know what the payment is for.

I believe Elton John and David Furness (but we know who has the cash in that relationship) paid £20k to one surrogate. That is a lot of money and more than the usual but he is worth roughly £350m so he could afford the type of money you mention on behalf of Lass Barbara.

I'm a bit confused by your situation Surrosmith. The "boys" are somewhere same sex marriage isn't recognised and they can't both be on the birth cert but you're in the UK but you and your children are going to be close to this "team"/"cousin"?

Why have you always been involved in their discussions about these "boys" plans to have children? Surely the decision to adopt or not would have been a private discussion for them, not a "team" discussion?

I may have missed it, but are you related to one of them?

Barbara there's part of me that's glad no one's willing to pay that much money for a surrogate. It would make it too tempting a prospect for too many impoverished women.

I could see quite a lot of women who struggle to work weighing up whether it's worth being a surrogate once every few years simply in order to survive without being constantly at the mercy of the DWP. Be seen as a drain on society, or as a marvellously generous self-supporting citizen? A single mother with one child could spend close to a decade being harangued and pushed towards survival sex, or get the equivalent amount of money with one surrogacy.

It's a grim prospect.

@TruthOnTrial haha no! Sorry I should of been clearer with that part of my post - all my healthcare is private. That way if anything is needed etc then it can be done straight away.

Donating my milk however will be done to the local NHS milk bank x

So in your case surro you are accessing for free even higher levels of maternity care, with referral to extremely high cost and high demand consultants and midwifery team seniors!

Wtaf!

Thank you for posting that judgement, OhHoly, and for the summary Bernard

I very strongly recommend anyone who has time to read the whole judgement - Bernard quite correctly -given that one doesn't want to impose one's own judgement on the facts in the process of summarising - has stuck to the factual bare bones of the story, but the judge pulls no punches in showing the full horror of the situation.

It's an awful case, though thankfully the judge I think has found in favour of the best interests of the child. But it shows exactly why the law needs to remain as it is (short of a complete ban).

A former poster, Lass, made the point that if one were to go down the model of commercial surrogacy along US lines, it would be interesting to see the surrogate compensated properly (she wasn't advocating for this, btw, far from it; simply saying "you want this? You owe it to women to pay them properly). In the case above, the woman acting as surrogate was paid 12.5k (iirc) as "expenses" (which we all know is actually a payment, plus a promise of 1k in compensation should she need a hysterectomy as a result of the pregnancy (the bit in the judgement about the commissioning parents haggling over keeping this sum capped at 1k is particularly chilling).

Following Lass's suggestion, I coated up 9 months 24/7, with time and a half for overnight and weekends, at NMW. It's comfortably over 100k. Plus I would say that commissioning parents should also have to pay for private healthcare during pregnancy and birth (so the NHS doesn't have to subsidise them). Plus insurance cover of one million for downstream health needs after birth/life insurance should the surrogate die.

Not looking so attractive now, is it, would be baby purchasers? You want a commercial market place; I say cost it properly and realistically and price you out of the market. (Of course my actual position is that commercial surrogacy should remain illegal).

Babies are not commodities, end of.

They should never be brought (or bought) into the world to be given away or sold. Its sickening.

Whilst I have every sympathy for any wanting dc that cant have them naturally, its a hard thing to do, to accept that. Accept it you must. Or adopt a child in need of a home.

Babies need their womb parent, vital first year and fourth trimester for healthy psychological and physical development.

What if the baby is severely disabled, the pretend parents dont have any responsibilities in law do they.

Any biological father can walk away now. Let alone a surrogacy situation.

This can destroy the DMs life.

Stop treating babies as commodities.

Its not a 'right' to have babies.

@OhHolyJesus the reasoning behind adoption is because unfortunately for them where they were based at the time they didn’t acknowledge same sex marriages so while they did explore that option it was like hitting their heads against a brick wall & one of them wouldn’t of been recognised as having any link to the child & wouldn’t be on any paperwork as a parent in anyway.

Pregnancies through IVF as a general rule of thumb as classed as needing consultant lead care (even more so with me being classed as geriatric 😂🤦🏽‍♀️ I certainly don’t feel 35) so while yes this pregnancy is running smoothly & everything is perfectly ok (like with my previous pregnancies) I am classed as being high risk. Because my previous pregnancies went without a hitch I am currently under midwife lead care but the second anything changes I will be going straight to consultant lead care. Which while I don’t like being faffed about with (I hate fuss) I would openly welcome because the babies health matters as does mine.

Yes we have all those things you asked written down in an agreement. I plan to BF baby once born for the first day then will express. I will donate any excess milk if the Dads feel like they would prefer to use formula. I don’t want my milk going to waste & o know there are so many women out there who can’t produce their own milk so I would like to donate it to my local milk bank. Baby will leave the hospital when I leave & then go home with their Dads, which hopefully won’t be ages as I know we will all be keen to start the next step in our journey!
Also yes, my will has been updated & life insurance too ☺️

With my work place, I simply spoke to my manager. They knew about me previously wanting to donate my eggs & then changing my mind as we tend to operate a very open door policy. I am treated like any other pregnant member of staff, risk assessments done on time etc etc... there are 2 other people that do the same job as me so they’re have been made aware they for a short time they will be taking on some of my work. However I am in a slightly more senior role to them with that I do the same as them but a higher work load. So they are relishing in the opportunity to get more stuck in - especially one of them as she is due to move up to the same work load as myself x

There's even a current thread by a poster about being intimidated from posting.. So much for all the claims this board supports free speech and different opinions.

Why the self pity? Who exactly is 'intimidating' you or anyone else from posting?

My point was that there's a pretty obvious difference between discussions - which this is - and an attempt to get 'your average casual browser' who just so happens to come across the Feminism page, 'on board'. I suspect you are fully aware of this difference but are pretending not to be: hence, being obtuse.

I respect your views of course Surro and I'm asking questions as you are perfectly placed to answer them. I'm afraid I have a lot of questions!

Are you able to expand upon the reasons your friends decided against adoption?

I read about surrogate pregnancies being more risky when the egg is from a donor.

What advice did the doctors give you and what were you told about the health risks? Did you take out life insurance to protect your family? What did you and your friends decide to do if the baby had any development issues in your womb? Do you plan to breastfeed? Will the baby stay with you for any period of time after birth? Do you have a contract in place with all of the above?

You mentioned your company supporting your decision to be a surrogate mother, what procedure did you go through there? I appreciate you need to stay anonymous so please share what you are able.

I'm pleased you feel well in your pregnancy. You are lucky.

@OhHolyJesus

Yes we do! We know so much about the donor it’s actually amazing! Height, eye colour, her education prior to being a donor & what she is doing now in life etc.. the only thing we don’t have is a physical picture but we have an image in our head what she looks like & to be fair we all think she is awesome!

I personally didn’t have any side effects & if I’m truthful felt great throughout everything prior & post transfer. If anything a little tired but from experience I know that’s what pregnancy does to you.

Yes we did discuss adoption & that was one of the avenues they did explore. However after researching everything it was decided Surrogacy was the route they wanted to follow. In fact it was me that brought it up as a more firmer subject. Our whole families have been involved in this decision from the beginning & it’s something we are all involved in as a whole/team together. My daughters love the fact they get another “cousin” and what makes it even more special is that I’m actually carrying the baby! So they get to experience it all.
When I say we are a team, we really are. We were a team before surrogacy was even mentioned & we will be a team for many, many years to come.

As I have said previously I understand you all have your own views & I perfectly respect them. However I spied this thread & just wanted to put my own perspective across.
You yourself have had so many genuine questions & I think by me answering them it brings more understanding so you can respect my views also x

top tip DeusIbiEst, stop trying to police how others talk to each other when spending their evenings chatting on this chat site and all will be well

just say what you think - don't try to control how others say what they think

Or perhaps you are being obtuse?

I've noticed that seems to be the standard response to anyone who doesn't toe the agreed line on here, There's even a current thread by a poster about being intimidated from posting.. So much for all the claims this board supports free speech and different opinions.

I'm actually vehemently opposed to surrogacy- whether it's a man or a woman using it but heaven forfend I should step out of line. Do you (general) you have any idea how patronising and arrogant you sound trotting out this line about posters being stupid?

That picture!
its like a goldfish in a bag
that baby should have its rights prioritised

Yep you got Bernard

All in the UK in 2016 (the case, but events leading to that were before obviously).

The woman who connected the couple with the mother was also operating outside of the law. She should be prosecuted. So should the couple. All of them broke the law, the mother is a victim of the crime, arguably the baby boy is too.

The original surrogate who have the couple twins had an interesting story too.

It's all love and light until it's not right? That relationship soured and the couple obviously wanted to go the same illegal route to hire a second uterus for the job, a vulnerable woman, one they took the piss out of for being poor, one they lied to and didn't listen to. They already had twins, couldn't they be satisfied with that?

I shared it in the hope that others might read it and think about the child, mother and the family that have a child they love but a lifetime of more expense and difficulty raising this child. A child that would not have been born if it wasn't for that couple and the woman who made the introduction.