SURROGACY CONSULTATION ENDS ON FRIDAY 11 OCTOBER - PLEASE SUBMIT A RESPONSE [Edited by MNHQ at OP's request]

The Mirror has an interesting interview with a surrogate who describes doing this as an ‘addiction.‘

Is there any actual psychological phenomenon associated with this? (genuine question). Is there a point when anyone says no, you’re not doing this for psychologically healthy reasons? Addictive or compulsive behaviour in a literal sense can make people overlook or take risks they would normally avoid, for example.

It seems to be a theme in media interviews with surrogate women, quoting them saying they want to do it again and again. (Which would not be emotionally or physically safe obviously)

‘Other surrogates I spoke to said that I would want to do it again, and I do, it's an addiction.’

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-who-gave-birth-niece-20525535.amp

I'm fervently anti-surrogacy because it creates needless issues for the baby, and also isn't good for women.

I'm ALSO infertile and childless, and spent years trying and grew suicidal with it all.

Please stop with the "you don't know what its like" comments.

Some of us definitely do, and those who don't have a right (and possibly obligation) to speak up anyway. That's part of living in a society.

It's not about you and your pain / me and my pain.

No one is owed a newborn.

I have been enjoying the podcasts that Jennifer Lahl is realising. The first was a bit of background information. The second discussed resistance to proposals to allow commercial surrogacy in New York and the push back that scuppered the bill. I haven't had a chance to listen to the latest yet.

https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/venusrising/episodes/2019-10-10T2200000-0700

"You can now find Venus Rising on your favorite streaming platform! That’s right, you can listen to episodes of Venus Rising on Spotifyy, Google Playy, Podomaticc, and even iTuness!!! The podcast features chats about all things fertility, infertility and women’s reproductive health."

Cattenberg Dustin appears to have made it his mission to bring California to the UK. We will resist!

Press release from Nordic Model Now regarding the letter. Over 50 organisations and 800 individual signatures.

nordicmodelnow.org/2019/10/11/press-release-over-50-organisations-sign-open-letter-condemning-the-law-commissioners-surrogacy-consultation/

From the press release:

One woman who signed the letter left a comment saying, “I have been a surrogate and it has destroyed my life.” This illustrates the extreme risks involved. Another woman got in touch to say:
“I was an unpaid altruistic surrogate and it was an absolutely horrific experience that resulted in me needing treatment for PTSD. I am also left with permanent birth injuries. I was abandoned by the intended parents who just used me up and discarded me after the traumatic birth.
I also think often of the poor, young female student in Eastern Europe who also had to endure egg harvesting and the life-long consequences of that, to pay for her studies. There is very little that is ‘ethical’ about surrogacy.
I am now completely against ALL surrogacy, whether commercial (which is completely immoral in my view), but also altruistic unpaid surrogacy. The potential for abuse is too great. Women should not be encouraged to endanger their emotional and physical health and safety for other people’s ‘need’ to have babies. Women should not be encouraged to put ourselves second, and to risk our lives for other people.”

FannyCann, I did email them a few comments this afternoon. I hadn’t realised before that I could do that.

I’ve long thought that the surrogacy laws in California sounded horrendous and I strongly disagree with Dustin Lance Black’s campaign to make UK surrogacy law closer to California’s. We’re about to take a significant step closer to the nightmarish surrogacy contracts that Jennifer Lahl writes about, if certain vested interests get their way.

Links to a couple of the threads I mentioned.

The Rumplestiltskin Law
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3606313-The-Rumplestiltskin-Law

The illegitimacy of the ‘Rumplestiltskin’ Surrogacy consultation
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3651968-The-illegitimacy-of-the-Rumplestiltskin-Surrogacy-consultation

Aww. Thanks for the thanks!
I want to say a huge thank you to everyone who has contributed, we have all learnt so much from each other.
Someone on here has been doing sterling work with FOI requests. 
Barracker alerted so many of us to the Consultation with her Rumplestiltskin thread back in June, and JoanOfQuark started another important and informative thread on it in July.
And I am so happy that so many people have got their responses in to the consultation right up to the end. whatever keeps you all going. It was bloody hard work filling in that consultation even using the Nordic Model Now template and cutting and pasting lots of the answers.

I also want to say a massive thank you to the ladies at Nordic Model Now for producing their brilliant response for us all to look at and use. It really helped me understand a lot of the issues. And I know lots of people , not just here but on twitter and Spinster have said they've used it or edited in their own responses whilst using parts of it. I think it was a hugely important piece of work.
When I get their final figures I will post them but last I heard about there had been about 800 downloads (although not all of those will have converted into submissions) and over 600 signatures to the letter.

This thread hasn't been about judging. It has been about considering the implications of the new laws that are proposed by a Public Consultation. Since when were new laws decided by stakeholders with a vested interest? And yet this consultation has only considered the views of "stakeholders".
There's been some great discussion and lots of interesting contributions. Thank you to everyone and it's great that so many people responded to the Consultation right up to the deadline.

reallynow1 I am glad you were able to have a good experienced surrogacy and it went well for everyone. I understand that in the UK thanks to the fairly strict laws and in no small part thanks to the NHS these arrangements are relatively well protected. Even so there are some shocking cases, as per some that have been referenced on the thread. That you were able to afford it is due to the current restrictions we have in the UK. If the new proposals are accepted the price will go up exponentially, what with all those agencies queueing up for a piece of the action.

I think what, in particular, nearly everyone here agrees is that we don't want those protections swept away. We don't want advertising and matching agencies that are free to charge as they please.
We don't want students groomed and coerced to sell their eggs.
We don't want vulnerable women to be tempted by generous payments including liberal "expenses" and "gifts". We recognise the importance of protecting birth mothers and their babies by ensuring the birth mother continues to have legal parenthood of the baby at birth.

There are so many issues and points of concern. I've been reading and researching for several months now and have learnt so much. Very little of it good.

I'm truly appalled for instance, that the proposals include easing the way for surrogacy tourism, helping parents who have acquired a baby abroad to bring them home. There is nothing I have seen or read about overseas surrogacy hotspots that makes me think we should be facilitating this.

It's worth remembering that hopeful commissioning parents are also vulnerable and the moneymakers in places like the Ukraine don't have their best interests at heart any more than they do the baby or the surrogate mother. The British couple in this film were lucky to get their baby home to the NHS before irreparable damage had been done in the public hospital in Ukraine.

Surrogacy remains limited to small numbers in the UK precisely because we limit payments and the rights of the intending parents. I think it serves everyone best if we leave it like that. (Or impose further safeguards and restrictions).

Yes, joining in the admiration and thanks to Fanny. So many aspects of surrogacy I wouldn't have considered if not for her and other posters on here.

I'll never forget the discussion about how in altruistic surrogacy everyone except the woman taking on the most risk gets paid. I'll never see altruistic surrogacy as truly so again - it's not when the lawyers and fertility clinics are making a profit.

Well said 9years
Fanny have you’ve done amazing work here.

Fanny, thank you for keeping this in the forefront of FWR. I think your work here is at least as important as your midwifery.

Hear hear ohHolyJesus.

The women of Mumsnet FWR are amazing. I’ve been following the discussions with awe at how thoroughly and patiently posters have explained why and how the selling of babies is inherently wrong, no ifs, no buts. The rights of the baby should ALWAYS be paramount.

Msfs a solicitor you say? Hmmm

Just popping back on quickly to correct a previous post I made - Surro and Garden Man were busy on the Famous Men and Surrogacy thread, not this one, insisting that no one gets hurt through surrogacy. It's a good read, I recommend it.

As we approach the deadline I wanted to say how amazing it has been to be talking to you all. I've learnt a lot in researching this subject. I once considered surrogacy myself and I'm so glad I didn't pursue it, for so many reasons. For those who did or will do it one day, I hope you look at it from all sides and consider the baby above the feelings of any adult in the arrangement. Vulnerable women who make decisions about their bodies and DNA for financial reasons are one thing, but creating a new life only for it to be torn from the mother they know, well it breaks my heart.

I also think those focusing on payments are probably the ones who could never really believe in doing any good to anyone without gaining something in return and that says more about yourselfs than anyone else !

I suspect the exact opposite. People can understand unforced altruistic surrogacy, but can foresee lots of problems if it becomes commercial.

anyway I really came on to say that the consultation is still live. My concerns include that-

'The welfare of the child, and the principle of paramouncy, seem curiously absent from this consultation. There is a marked contrast with the process of adoption in the UK where the emphasis is on the right of the child to have the best possible outcome. Prospective adoptive parents do not have the 'right' to adopt a child. This consultation seems focussed on meeting the 'right' of intending parents to a newborn, and the well being of the infant and mother are secondary. In particular the biological nature of the maternal-infant relationship, the role of skin to skin contact, breastfeeding, attachment and its importance to neurological development have all been overlooked.

The danger for women, especially those who are poor or otherwise disadvantaged is that if surrogacy becomes more common, even if payment is not officially permitted, it will be understood as a reasonable expectation, not an exceptional gift and before you know it we are in Gilead.'

I haven't rtft, so maybe this has already been said, but Mfsf why do you think it's illegal to sell kidneys, or other organs?
I mean I have 2 , right, and I'd love to help someone live a better life.

AFAIK, people who altruistically donate kidneys to family members are given extensive counselling, quite rightly, and we don't allow it to be a commercial process.

If someone is a truly altruistic surrogate, in the context of a truly equal relationship, that may well work brilliantly for all concerned but the potential pitfalls, even in the best of all possible situations are so obvious that it's better to protect the more vulnerable people who will be exploited and suffer if this practice becomes more widespread.

I disagree with agencies and I disagree with commercial surrogacy as in America. It would make it completely unaffordable to 'regular' people like myself. I am not a rich woman who rented a poor young woman to be at my beck and call with my demands whilst she produced a child for me which she would never see again - that is something I could not agree with.

However I do think that there should be more flexibility with expenses in some scenarios.

I agree there should be some safeguards to ensure vulnerable young women are not exploited.

Parental responsibility at birth is something I agree with, but again, with built in protection in specific situations.
As I said before..I am not a bad person who bought my baby or who forced someone or exploited someone to sell me a baby. I am a 'normal' person who you could see walking down the street who due to a shit illness could not carry my baby who I yearned for. Do I believe it was my right to have a baby. No. Was I prepared to try an alternative route to motherhood - yes.

I have a feeling nobody here judging intended parents and surrogates has even meet neither . If they did they might think twice about accusing others of what they are accusing and I doubt they would do it face to face .the children I helped my friends have are both loved , cared , wanted and happy . They know I carried them , they understand the “magic “of surrogacy . They where far from easy journeys but I wouldn’t change it for the world and yes there where risks to me but I fully understood that from day one and made a informed decision . There was no payment , there was no taking advantage or emotional damage !
I also think those focusing on payments are probably the ones who could never really believe in doing any good to anyone without gaining something in return and that says more about yourselfs than anyone else !

This thread is tailored obviously to those who disagree with surrogacy - blatantly obvious to see!

I don't think anyone was trying to hide that. I don't think I had major objections to it happening occasionally on a small scale. But the introducing payments, agencies to facilitate it and the 'intended parents' becoming the legal parents at birth seems a very different thing.

I assume your surrogate mother was well over the age of 18 as well.

I have read and responded to the consultation.

This thread is tailored obviously to those who disagree with surrogacy - blatantly obvious to see!
However, I will say that my child is not and never was a commodity. The fantastic friend who carried my child did not rent her womb to me, nor did she sell me my child.
What she did was make an informed decision with the blessing of her partner that she wished to help another. She and I formed a strong friendship and spent a long time discussing all aspects of surrogacy.

Nothing I can say will change anyone's mind here, but as I sit here typing this my children are tucked into bed upstairs sleeping and they are my world.

Everyone is entitled to their own views and opinions - we are not all the same. But.....in having views and opinions you should not in essence be accusing women who have been through unimaginable losses or suffered the trauma of cancer or conditions such as mrkh of buying and renting. Nor should women who make informed decisions be accused of selling babies or making careers of it.

oops - 'surrogacy is work' type comments is all too predictable.

I suppose the 'sex work is work' brigade have at least woken people like me up to how dangerous their opinions are. The old-fashioned, 'oldest profession, just try to make it a bit safer' slipped under the radar a lot easier. [I didn't agree it was ever okay]

Apologies @Mfsf I will delete the post.
I'm glad you don't approve of agencies and hope you voiced your objections.

Latin - I salute you for filling it in on the train - I found it hard on a laptop.

The question about potentially under 18 surrogacy agreements - I pointed out that I would have to report that for safeguarding of children - we treat students as children for safeguarding protection until they leave school after A levels now.

I am glad I did my own answers - not the best and a bit random at times, but at least they know I passionately don't think women's bodies are for rent and that babies shouldn't be paid for.

It seems harsh, when I am someone who has had children, but if you can't have children the options are adoption or acceptance. Expecting another woman to risk their life and emotional health to produce a baby just isn't reasonable. Add in payments and the potential for 'surrogacy is work' type e

For the person accusing me of representing a agency ! You could not be more mistaken , my career and surrogacy neve crossed paths and never will and I personally have a big issue with agencies so no I will not and would never represent BB , quite the opposite

God that was a labour of love filling it in on my phone on a bumpy train.

Agree that it seemed to have pre-decided that surrogacy is a Good Thing. I used one if the templates linked above but couldn't cut and paste in my phone so my replies were a bit shorter.