Abortions

Calmly put Lang, thanks.

I agree OP. This is not a good place for that kind of support.

Why do these discussions always wander into emotive hypotheticals about vanishingly rare situations?

Yes. I did try to get this across on page one to head off these fever dream scenarios! The lack of trust in other women seems very anti-feminist to me.

There are fewer than 4,000 terminations carried out at 18 weeks or over each year in the UK. Almost all of them are for foetal abnormality. A few are for risk to mother (cancer diagnoses during pregnancy and suchlike). A tiny number are for young teens who had concealed pregnancy. That sort of thing.

There is no need to reduce term limits. Women make good decisions about late terminations already! They basically only take place in the exigent circumstances that exceptions are proposed for anyway. If the term limit was abolished altogether, they'd still make good decisions. There would be no flood of casual foeticides FFS.

The real problem in the UK is that westilldon't have abortion on demand. That is the travesty. In my view abortion on demand should be available up to 18 weeks with no limit for medically necessary abortions

The reality is abortion is available on demand for up to 24 weeks in the UK. The 2 doctor rule should go and consulting a doctor only should stay.

In the last year there were 205,295 abortions in England and Wales and 12,212 in Scotland. In the same period there were 679,106 live births inEnglandand Wales and 52,861 in Scotland. Those figures really don't suggest that abortion is difficult to come by in UK (excluding NI).

'And Toorah the current set-up you're 'good with' DOES allow 'choosing to kill a healthy baby in late pregnancy'.

There isn't scope for changing minds or compromise here. It's one set of belief about rights against another. No universal squeamishness, no universal belief that unborn children take precedence over women. But you want to be careful with that old chestnut that because late abortion is very traumatic for the mother, she shouldn't be allowed an informed choice... That's the cr* used by pro-lifers to say ALL abortion is so bad for women that it should not exist. I guess because we don't live in the deep South, our laws consider late abortion isn't 'murder' and it seems to be very rarely used not by those harshly judged feckless or selfish, but the unaware young, the raped, and those where lives will be very short or primarily suffering. Not seeing much compassion for women in those terrible positions, but I imagine we will just go round and round shouting at each other, so polarized and emotive this is. I guess Hairy* knew this would go this way when you posted...

Well thanks wimmin, your towering intellects and deep compassion has just peak-pro-choiced me

The extreme views of the OP and the way she expresses them will do absolutely nothing to change the minds of anyone opposed to abortion or anyone seeking to change the UK"s (excluding NI) liberal position. The 2 doctor rule is rubber stamping and the UK cut off period is far later than just about any other country.

The OP has not changed my mind that I support the UK (excluding the NI) position but , yes, I agree with the comment above- the OP is not doing women any favours.

And who ever used that silly, fake analogy about being shackled to a violin player- it's nonsensical. It's a fake, made up scenario which has never happened and will never happen. It really isn't the "gotcha" some of you think it is.

"I don't think Mumsnet is the place to discuss abortions, but here I am starting a thread on abortion and if you don't agree with my view you then SHUT UP!"

Subtle, OP, real subtle...🙄

Why do these discussions always wander into emotive hypotheticals about vanishingly rare situations?

The idea that hordes of women are deciding to abort healthy foetuses at 39 weeks is ludicrous. Late abortions are almost always a result of something going horribly wrong with a wanted pregnancy, or the result of a highly vulnerable woman having been in denial of her pregnancy or not having understood she was pregnant.

The real problem in the UK is that we still don't have abortion on demand. That is the travesty. In my view abortion on demand should be available up to 18 weeks with no limit for medically necessary abortions or for the small number of highly vulnerable women who did not realise/were in denial about a pregnancy. For these latter, small minority, of situations women should be offered support and counselling to address their underlying issues, not judgement and villification.

Who's that trip trapping over the MN boards?

I’m good with the current set up - can’t get behind choosing to kill a healthy baby in late pregnancy

I also do worry that if these views are put forward as if they are generally accepted by feminists, it puts young women off finding out about feminism and/or identifying as feminists. It certainly would put me off and if these views became widely held I'd be looking for some other way to frame my anti-sexism views.

I fail to see how you can claim to be Pro women but accepting of the idea of a fully formed baby girl being killed just minutes before being born. I would personally prefer that there was no need for abortions at all but as soon as a baby is viable, the mother should not have a right to request it is killed. As previous people have said, I understand refusal to incubate any longer but not an insistence on the baby's death.

Until birth abortions is murder. How can you say it isn't. That child has a right to life and you are NOT God.

I don't believe that a child has autonomy until the mother expels that child.

Why?

I disagree with you. Every one has a right to put their point across.

I don't see how killing our most innocent and vulnerable in society is womans right and freedom. It turns them into monsters.

Your position is extreme and you come across as selfish and irresponsible, OP. I think there are some circumstances where an abortion might be the most acceptable outcome and very early on this could be ok but to have abortions at any stage and just because it’s not the right time is appalling in my opinion. How irresponsible do you have to be to accidentally get pregnant five times? You talk about choice but you have a choice at the start and it’s the choice to get pregnant and use effective contraception. Yes accidents happen but five times?! Did it occur to you to get alternative contraception? Obviously abuse and rape situations might be slightly different but you are not limiting your position to that.

Agree Stinky I find the late term arguments very illogical. I know they are not common but I imagine they are very traumatising for the medical staff.

Late abortion is a dirty business. And don't think it's without risk. A friend was annoyed as a woman was admitted in extremis from an abortion clinic to her labour ward and subsequently died meaning the maternal death was counted for her unit not the private clinic that had mismanaged the unfortunate woman.

24 weeks is right with provision for later being for serious foetal abnormality only or to save the life of the mother.

Also, if you support late term abortion for any reason then you are inevitably going to end up with sex-selective abortion. How do you feel about that?

I'm sorry OP but your position is ridiculous and extreme and not something that I suspect more than 1% of the general population would subscribe to.

Women have rights to an abortion early on but if you make the choice not to terminate before 24 weeks, you have to accept that you're in it for the long haul.

Your arguments with regards to very late term abortions also seem very illogical to me. What is the difference between A) a woman at 40 weeks who is about to give birth but opts for the child to be terminated and B) a woman who has just given birth and decides immediately that she wants the baby killed? The baby doesn't have any real autonomy immediately after birth - it's not like a baby giraffe that can walk off. There should be the ability to have the baby be anonymously adopted in both cases if that's what the mother wants, but once the baby can feel pain (which I understand occurs during the third trimester) that's not OK unless there are serious medical reasons.

I also agree with the above poster - if it's the issue of having a child out in the world that you didn't want then that's not a feminist issue. Men face this issue all the time.

Thanks for answering that makes sense. I dont agree with late term abortion either unless risk to the mother or babies life.

I too support abortion but cannot get on board with one at full term. I cannot imagine a scenario where it would be the right thing to do. The mental health implications would be massive and the outcome potentially much worse than giving birth to the live baby.

Not quite gee because giving birth changes your body and puts a woman at risk. I have no issue with women choosing not to do this. I just can’t agree that late term abortion is right.

I also dont agree that the whole "if they give the baby up then they are forced to be mothers against their will because there will always be someone biologically connected to them out there" is a feminist issue. Happens every day to men. Loads of men are fathers against their will out there.