Abortions

Agree with spartacus, that is.

Agree

However the focus on abortion to term at woman's choice is highly counter productive and supports the anti abortion crew by agreeing with their misogynist views.

It is not legal in any country as far as I'm aware, for choice.
The idea that women will be likely to take this up, aborting just before birth as they've changed their mind, is misogynist. In real life, women get abortions as early s possible, on the whole. The idea that women will, in numbers, be this casual and flakey feeds the anti abortion argument. Part of which is that women are unable to make good decisions, are irresponsible, unreliable, and therefore must have the decision taken out of their hands.

The points where women say they have no qualms about abortion to birth for choice also supports the anti lot. Who believe women are really quite callous and selfish in wanting abortions.

Theoretically at any point and for choice yes. In practice, the idea of aborting a baby at 3 9 weeks is going to be pretty awful to think about for most people. And of course in real life these only tend to happen for serious reasons and are traumatic all round.

I wouldn’t expect anti-choice activists to change their minds. However, I know my mind was changed by arguments like those here. Some years ago I used to think the current law was about right, but I have been persuaded by those who argue that termination should be available until term, for the reasons expressed earlier.

Yes, there are mostly supportive posters but there arealwaysposters that tell women 'you never regret a child' or that abortion will traumatise them

I've only ever seen those opinions posted on threads where the op has been asking for opinions or saying that their situation isn't right but that they are not sure that they want an abortion.

Would you rather all posters encourage her to go ahead and promise her that she won't regret it?

Surely making someone have an abortion that they don't want is as bad as denying someone an abortion that they do want?

I've seen women saying that they can't afford to have the baby or don't have adequate housing and posters advising where they can get help. If that means that the woman can then keep the baby that she wants isn't that the right thing to do?

I'm not advocating posters trying to dissuade a poster who has already decided or trying to persuade her to stay in an abusive relationship rather than have an abortion btw, but in circumstances where the woman feels like abortion is the only option even if she doesn't want one.

I think your stance is counterproductive. I think your refusal to even consider that it might be counterproductive, or if it is, you don't care because your own moral purity is more important, shows a very closed mind.

Your comments about anti- abortion posters are well into the "stfu" category.

I'm not sure me delicately dancing around a subject will change the fact the world is full of abusive misogynistic dick-heads

Rather missing the point. Your approach far from changing their minds will entrench their position. The minds you might change are the ones sitting on the fence- and not in the direction you want.

As I said you seem more keen on pontificating the purity of your position than engaging with reality.

Where am I seeing it? On every bloody thread that isn't posted in pregnancy choices when women post about horrible situations. Yes, there are mostly supportive posters but there arealwaysposters that tell women 'you never regret a child' or that abortion will traumatise them

You concede there are mostly supportive posters yet take umbrage that on a discussion forum (not an abortion support forum) some posters might have a different opinion.

Who exactly is telling women to "shut the fuck up"?

I am absolutely pro-choice, and whilst I appreciate medical advances mean premature babies are surviving at an earlier & earlier gestation, I believe the cut off is about right. As has been previously said upthread, there’s a world of difference between a wanted baby sadly born prematurely and a woman wanting access to an abortion. However I’m just not sure I could ever be comfortable with full term abortions, except when medically necessary.

I do question how many doctors would be willing to carry out the procedure? There is a world of difference between asking a doctor to perform fetocide on a 23 week old fetus, and one that is 37+ weeks and essentially a fully developed baby. Would potentially having to travel miles & miles for the procedure not be even more damaging to a obviously very vulnerable woman?

This email appeared in my in-box yesterday. I'm sure arguing for abortion to term for any or no reason is going to really change minds in Argentina.

International Safe Abortion Day, where activists across the world stand together to demand access to safe abortion for all women and girls

Protecting girls from forced pregnancy in Argentina

“We’re talking about girls who are 10, 11, 12 years old. Any sexual relations with young girls counts as rape. When there is a pregnancy, we must remember that girl has been victim of a crime.” - IACHR President, Commissioner Esmeralda Arosemena de Troitiño

Yesterday, on behalf of Equality Now I joined five Argentine women’s and children’s rights organizations in Washington, DC to urge the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights to take action to protect girls from sexual violence and forced pregnancy inArgentina

We testified that Argentina is failing to live up to its obligations under international and regional human rights lawwhen it comes to accessing legal abortion for victims of sexual violence, particularly young girls

Part of the impetus for the hearing was thehigh-profile case of Lucíaan 11-year old girl who became pregnant after being raped and was forced to give birth by Cesarean section this past March after Argentine authorities refused to allow her the abortion to which she was legally entitled, and whichshe requested.Sadly, Lucía’s case is neither unique nor isolated

"This is not a complicated matter at all"

The Commissioners were particularly upset by the fact that so many cases of forced pregnancy following sexual violence involve young girls

“This is not a complicated matter at all. Children are children, and must be allowed to be children, not forced to do adult things like bear children. And no one has the right to decide otherwise.” - Commissioner Margarette May Macaulay

www.equalitynow.org/

Did I tell anyone to shut the fuck up?

No, but you have troll hunted OP. Bad form.

It's not so much bad faith perhaps but the inability to comprehend that your stance and comments are at best unhelpful to your cause and at worst possibly dangerous.

You strike me as being more interested in virtue signalling the purity of your position than engaging with how that pans out in reality.

It's that kind of attitude that couches the whole discussion in shame and that gives the idea that it's something wrong

You have been using the concept of shame a lot as a bit of a gotcha without much substance.

For many people abortion is wrong. For many people it is the lesser of 2 wrongs. Your dismissal of anything other than your hardline stance really won't help the women who currently have no access to abortion.

Did I tell anyone to shut the fuck up?

No I didn't.

Pointing out that women saying they have no qualms whatsoever about abortion until birth is massive ammo for those who would remove our rights is a simple fact.

Agree celia.

Plus women stating that they don't feel remotely squeamish about abortion up to the point of birth.

Ammunition for the anti abortion crew.

‘I’m pro choice but...’
Is the same as:
‘I’m not racist but...’

*hint - it means you most certainly are not pro choice. It means you’ll let a woman do what she wants with her own body as long as it suits your beliefs, if it goes beyond what you personally feel is ok, she shouldn’t have that choice.

I don't know what the purpose of the OP was. So far as abortion rights in the UK I think a don't rock the boat approach is best.

So far as abortion rights in Malta, El Salvador, Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic I don't think the OP's arguments would do anything other than vindicate anti -abortionists that they are right.

I’m also in favour of allowing terminations for any reason at any stage of pregnancy right up to full term. Other posters have articulated my position better than I could have. I’m not remotely squeamish about late term abortions because I simply don’t see it as killing a child, I see it as a woman exercising her right to bodily autonomy.

Which I still think was the purpose of the op.

discussion of late term abortions as if they happen all the time and without compelling reasons is just bollocks

They don't happen all the time. Statistics prove that. They happen, but rarely in the UK. Their discussion is the inevitable consequence of threads like the OP's arguing for abortion to term in all cases.

The minute you bring this argument in, you are blaming the woman for having sex for enjoyment. It's ok to terminate if she didnt have sex for fun???

The point is that it is understandable why it might be more harmful to bring the child into an abusive situation or cause the mother so much difficulty in raising a child created in such a traumatic context.

It isn’t about blaming a woman for having sex for any reason. There is no blame, only responsibility. In most situations it should be possible to prevent a pregnancy before it happens if that’s what she chooses.

I agree op. The most irritating thing is seeing women who call themselves feminists or who act like they’re all about the sisterhood but then think they should have any say on what a woman does with her own body.

My friend growing up found herself pregnant at 14, she hid it from everyone. Luckily her mum found out when she was 23 weeks and they were able to sort out a termination. I can’t imagine if she’d have been turned away how different her life would be today.

As early as possible, as late as necessary. Not your uterus, not your decision. I don’t think there should be a time limit. No one in their right mind, deliberately waits until the last minute for a termination and the rhetoric from anti choicers that they do is tiresome.

I have had an abortion, I no longer regret it or feel shame, although I did at the time.