Abortions

Suicide hasn't been illegal for a long time in UK.

And abortion for choice at 3 9 weeks is extreme and unpalatable.

It also would hardly ever happen as women are not flakey irrational creatures.

So continually raising it, what is the point? It also props up the people who want to take our rights away, by agreeing that women are irrational. That we want and need abortion to birth, for choice.

I suppose maybe I'm just more pragmatic and thinking about real life. Rather than theory.

Do we criminalise a person for amputating a body part?
Do we criminalise a person for attempting suicide? No.
Bodily sovereignty is the right to make all decisions relating to one's own body, whether beneficial or harmful to oneself.

But we don't have bodily sovereignty.

As regards amputating a body part - you would need to get a Dr to agree to do it, which would be very difficult if not impossible, unless you.plan on hacking your leg off in the back garden.

Suicide I believe is still illegal, or was until very recently. Though not sure what the punishment could be.

We also can't choose what happens to our bodies in all circumstances. I want, and need, an operation but no one will do it because I'm too young - how then do I have full autonomy over my body?

If I wanted to choose euthanasia I couldn't in this country so again, we don't have full autonomy over our bodies, it doesn't just apply to abortion.

'well, this is Mumsnet, not a negotiating table'

There are a lot of women on mn, an awful lot, who form part of society, and who count towards public opinion.

It's not a closed forum for theoretical debate, not that theoretical debate is bad.

It is read by a lot of people and the tactic of putting forward an extreme opinion in order to try and show how awful these feminist types are happens all the time.

OP said it was a general abortion thread but mentioned till term twice in first 3 posts.
Another poster saying they have no squeamishness about abortion to birth.

I remain dubious.

In what way don't adults have full control over their own bodies?
Do we criminalise a person for amputating a body part?
Do we criminalise a person for attempting suicide? No.
Bodily sovereignty is the right to make all decisions relating to one's own body, whether beneficial or harmful to oneself.
Even after death, we respect the wishes of a person about their body.

Parents act in a child's best interests until they have the capacity to act in their own.

As to requiring arguments to be more palatable to those who'd like to remove even more autonomy from women, well, this is Mumsnet, not a negotiating table where women plead only to be a little bit enslaved for a little bit of time because that's not so much to ask really.

It is entirely valid to take the position that all humans with capacity should have sacrosanct healthcare control over their own bodies at every point and be able to act in their own best interests without impediment or sanction.

It only sounds extreme or unpalatable because it seems inconceivable for women to assert unbreakable autonomy over themselves. Because we don't hear women dare to say this enough. Because let's face it, we ought to be grateful for having freedom some of the time, and the price is to accept being owned part of the time, by others.

As early as possible, as late as necessary.
And always my body, my choice.

Was trying to read the full thread and then saw "5 abortions" and gave up! Good god!

I can't really see the point in this thread OP. You have an extreme veiw, fine. Did you start this thread to push your extreme veiw on others, and if they don't agree, they are wrong, and not a "proper feminist"?
We get it, you are a very confident woman, and by the sounds of it quite a careless one. After one or to accidental pregnancies, which of course do happen, surely you would be taking birth control very seriously? Why would you put your body through that 5 times? If I had had to have 4 abortions because of failed contraception, there is no way I would risk having another unwanted pregnancy because of a "moment of passion". Could your dh not have had a vasectomy, could you not have doubled contraception, after the first 4? I believe abortions are necessary. I would say its people who take advantage of knowing they can have multiple abortions for any reason i.e they got a bit carried away one night, that make some people feel a bit uncomfortable with the concept of "as early as possible, as late as necessary, for any reason".

So what was your motivation for starting this thread OP? You are not looking for advice, you are not offering advice, are you trying to get people on board to change the law? Are you just trying to start a thread on a subject which you know will rile people up?

@Yeahnahyeah I agree with you!

The minute you bring this argument in, you are blaming the woman for having sex for enjoyment. It's ok to terminate if she didnt have sex for fun???

The point is that it is understandable why it might be more harmful to bring the child into an abusive situation or cause the mother so much difficulty in raising a child created in such a traumatic context.

It isn’t about blaming a woman for having sex for any reason. There is no blame, only responsibility. In most situations it should be possible to prevent a pregnancy before it happens if that’s what she chooses.

By saying it's ok if a woman has been raped etc (or sex against her will) to have a termination, but its not ok if she wants one? Most people I would imagine wouldn't choose to have a late term termination for fun, and they have their own reasons.

"counterproductive"

Why should a woman's right to control her own body every second of her life be required to be 'productive' to someone's political argument?

If that is taking up my reference to "counterproductive" that is not the the point I am making.

What is counterproductive is the OP's stance, tenor and arguments which may well be counterproductive in the fight for abortion rights. It is not a stance which will change the minds of those who oppose abortion but could sway those on the fence to being anti-abortion.

I do wonder just how much of the current backlash in certain US states has been prompted by the New York bill.

I really don't think punishment should come into it but I do think when it comes to late term abortions it is important to have medical monitoring (as opposed to gatekeeping) as it seems to me important to know why these rare situations arise so society can develop better testing, education, whatever and ensure as few women as possible find themselves going through such traumatic events.

With earlier, I mentioned up to 18 weeks but am flexible on that, abortions it really isn't society's business. I want an abortion is good enough.

How would you punish a woman, when is she no longer able to make health decisions that are exclusively in her own best interests, at what point does her body cease to be her own, who owns it when she doesn't, and when does she get to reclaim it.

A pp made a comment upthread about enforced abortion for 'certain' women (I think they used an addict as an example).
It sent a chill down my spine that any woman should be FORCED into either abortion or giving birth (I'm pro choice by the way).

'Why should a woman's right to control her own body every second of her life be required to be 'productive' to someone's political argument?'

Because it's our political argument, being played out all over the world in a variety of ways, and we need to win.

So eg we can agitate for NI abortion laws to be relaxed. To allow to 12 weeks. To be same as rest of UK. Something that might gain traction.

Or we can agitate for abortion to term for choice in uk including NI and get nowhere.

This is not just a theoretical conversation it is a real life imperative all over the world, and trying to get abortion laws adhered to / changed is of course political.

I ask again, and people always ignore it, but what should the punishment be, that would be given to women who dare to control their own bodies from birth to death, without apology or permission?

What do you mean punishment?

And none of us, male or female, get to control our own bodies. I wish that were the case tbh and think that euthanasia should be legalised.

I also.dont agree that the medical profession should get the final say over treatments or procedures that we may want but that's how it is, so none of us have total control.over our bodies, even as adults. Not sure how the "from birth" could work either.

"counterproductive"

Why should a woman's right to control her own body every second of her life be required to be 'productive' to someone's political argument?

I ask again, and people always ignore it, but what should the punishment be, that would be given to women who dare to control their own bodies from birth to death, without apology or permission?

How would you punish a woman, when is she no longer able to make health decisions that are exclusively in her own best interests, at what point does her body cease to be her own, who owns it when she doesn't, and when does she get to reclaim it.

It's a foetus, it's not a baby until it's born and independent of its mother, until then it is part of the mother's body and her rights and needs are paramount.

Foetus or baby depend very much on how you are viewing the pregnancy.

And yes, the woman's rights and needs are paramount - including not being guilted into having an abortion if she doesn't want one.

And where have you seen women who are happily pregnant being told they must have an abortion???

I haven't and where have I said that I have?

What I have seen are women posting to say that they are pregnant but don't know what to do.

Just this week there have been threads about a woman pregnant with a 3rd child who is being financially supported by her parents who want her to have an abortion. She didn't want to have one but admitted that she couldn't provide for this baby not her other 2 without help.from her parents - majority of posters were persuading her to have an abortion despite her not wanting one.

There have been many others from women who have listed several reasons why having a baby isn't practical and the only reason for not having an abortion is just that they want the baby and countless posters will tell them that they are selfish if they continue with the pregnancy.

I think it's as wrong to persuade someone to have an abortion as it is to guilt someone into not having one with the "no one ever regrets a baby once it's born" attitude.

What people should be advised is to seek out independent counseling so that they make the right decision for them, whatever that may be.

Completely disagree with you op
No one has the right to end another persons life.
Babies are the most vulnerable in our society
No we should not be able to terminate for any reason at full term

Just the way I'm reading what the op is saying and also what Spartacus said

The discourse around abortion needs more thought too, it's still, even by many of the pro-choice-iest of pro-choicers often presented as a big hard decision to have an abortion. I've posted it before, but surely choosing to proceed with a pregnancy, birthing and raising a child is the big fuck off decision, not terminating and returning to the status quo.

It just reads, to me, as though she's saying that having an abortion should be the easier decision to make. Maybe for some, even many, women it will be but for many others it will be a more difficult one because of conflicting feelings. Not every decision has a clear right answer.

And where have you seen women who are happily pregnant being told they must have an abortion???

'I find the attitude that no woman should regret a termination or feel upset or sad about having one'

I've never seen this on mn.

I've posted it before, but surely choosing to proceed with a pregnancy, birthing and raising a child is the big fuck off decision, not terminating and returning to the status quo.

But what if a woman wants the baby but feels forced into an abortion because of circumstances? How easy is it for her to return to the status quo after a termination that she didn't really want?

I find the attitude that no woman should regret a termination or feel upset or sad about having one as dangerous as those who think abortion should be banned.

Surely your stance is just as dismissive to women who happen to feel differently to you?

My view is if you you want one you should have one and if you don't, don't. But either way no one should have the right to tell you what tondo, and that includes telling women who don't one that they should have it or telling them that if they do then they are wrong for the way they feel about it.

In short. I don't get why the focus on term for choice

When it's still entirely illegal in NI, loads of other countries around the world. And hard won rights are being rolled back elsewhere.

As others have pointed out, the actual law in the uk is not about choice, even though that's what happens in practice. So here it would be easy to roll back our position, just tell doctors there is a different, higher standard of what constitutes mental or physical harm, and they must abide by it. Job done. We should not be so nonchalant, probably.