Abortions

I always struggle to believe that people who cite the possibility of regret/loss-related pain for women having abortions, are genuine in their concern. Yes of course, we can note that is a possibility to add to the decision-making, and ensure women have access to good pre and post-abortion counselling from nonprofit healthcare providers, (not evangelical Christians).... but those who want to stop it 'because it's bad for women', I suspect are really just anti-abortion on the grounds of prioritizing the foetus. We can all agree abortion is bade for women where women don't have the means or support to go ahead with a wanted pregnancy - in those cases it's disappointing they're not focussing their efforts on economic and political improvement for poor and unsupported women, rather than waving placards with womb contents at those same vulnerable women.No abortion is pleasant, there's a wide range of response from distress at the time, to great relief and feeling it was the best decision, through to some who do regret it. That's not a reason to ban it - women aren't idiots and know that with any choice decision, they may regret the route they took. That can be part of the decision-making process but not a reason to stop all women accessing it. And Stinky, you show that the decision would not be very difficult for you because of your beliefs, so you might not need much help deciding what to do. Possible regret sits with all the other factors a women would consider when choosing what to do. It's used frequently as an argument from pro-lifers to stop everyone accessing it. Yes some women do regret it and suffer greatly, but that is sadly and commonly used by the evangelical right as grounds to stop abortion generally. Most choices come with a cost; don't forget that for many women their historical abortions are something they have no regrets about whatsoever.

But OP you must recognise that some women could be confident that they would regret an abortion if they had one? And that this is not necessarily as a result of shame/the patriarchy etc.?

I know that in normal circumstances (ie leaving aside situations where it is medically necessary, and I genuinely don't know how I'd feel if I were raped) I would not want an abortion and would regret it afterwards. For me, this stems from a strong aversion to doing harm to anyone including to foetuses. I am a vegan and do not wish to cause harm or pain to any other being if it can be avoided. I see a foetus as a life rather than a "potential life" as you put in your last post. This conviction is so serious that I didn't lose my virginity until I was nearly 30 and in a relationship with a man who I thought would make a decent father if I ended up accidentally pregnant.

I am aware that foetuses are not capable of feeling pain in the first two trimesters so would not judge anyone who availed themselves of the option to terminate. But nor do I wish to see the time limit for obtaining a legal abortion extended and think your views are extreme to say the least.

I wouldn't and don't go on posts where women are considering termination and say "You'll regret it" or "I would never have one." I don't know whether they would regret it and I don't think me telling them that I wouldn't want one would be helpful. But you are acting like everyone who thinks abortion is a big deal and more serious than having a tooth filling has been tricked into that by sexism. That's not the case for me.

"that there's a rhetoric that it's something that women will definitely regret, or find difficult, and many posters like to pipe up to confirm this point (despite never having had an abortion themselves)."

Yes there's a lot of that going on in another thread right now. It's those who are obviously anti-abortion pushing as fact things they have no understanding of because their own stance means they probably won't ever have an abortion.

You said "As to term limits - honestly? Largely irrelevant"

The term limits are very far from irrelevant. Ireland makes much play of its "abortion now available on demand" (but please read the small print - only for 12 weeks)

Seriously? I'll repeat: please don't cherry pick my posts in order to misrepresent what I said. If you don't understand what I said, ask for clarification. Either your reading comprehension is lacking or you're in bad faith.

My post was clear as referring to the legislative framework in mainland UK:

PPs have said feminist campaigning on abortion in mainland UK should be about maintaining the status quo and timidly not rocking the boat.

Nothing to do with Ireland. If you can read my posts on this thread and assume that, were I in Ireland, I'd not be campaigning for extension to its term limit, then I really can't help you. Try reading what I say.

And thanks to Lang for some civil and calm reason.

And *AMAM it's a bit disingenuous to say you ' hate shaming people'. You seem to quite enjoy it.

And it looks as if the OP was quite correct... Don't come to MN assuming pro-choice support. You may get all manner of 12-week-limit/Christian opinion and drawn into an explosive row. I too thought the OP was being unfairly troll-queried but watching this thread have wondered about your motives. Why not just raise the support issue and whether women in a dilemma could find gentle, balanced support here... Instead of which giving your own strong view just lit the touchpaper and got everyone publicly fighting. I'm completely with you btw, but I guess the conclusion is that you can't rely on support here as abortion is way too emotive. Women in need should go to professional services to talk it through.

No they don't so why do some prople focus on it so heavily.

It's a highly emotive thing to focus on and a misogynist one.

Any time for any reason.
As early as possible, as late as necessary.
Women don't suddenly decide to abort their pregnancy at 39 weeks.

Oh reread

OP is a vegan is she. I had missed that.

AMAM I'm confused by your response to me.

I'm not a vegan.

Nowhere in the world allows abortion at 3 9 weeks for choice, as far as I know, I would be very surprised if they did.

As to the exist part. It's a bit more of a philosophical question than probably relevant here, going into things like consciousness etc. Or maybe it does have relevance, and links into people's views on abortion.

Interesting.

It's that kind of attitude that couches the whole discussion in shame and that gives the idea that it's something wrong.

Well it's hardly ideal is it? It's not right or wrong, it's just what is best for the person in the situation. It's also not something that most people would be proud of either, they shouldn't feel shame, but most people wouldn't go around shouting it from the rooftops, because it's an emotive subject, and a pretty upsetting decision for most and not something they want to discuss.

I don't think you are the best person to be fighting "as late as necessary, for any reason" corner there OP. You are proving the point of the pro life campaigners, that some women take advantage of access to abortion in this country, and take it that, because the option is there, they can be careless with contraception and just have "a moment of passion one night". I really don't think it's relative how many years the abortions you've had spanned over.

Most of the threads I've seen on MN where a woman is looking for advice on abortion, are usually woman who are unsure of whether they want to go through with an abortion, but can't see any other way of dealing with the situation they are in. It can be a very confusing time and most of the posters on MN are encouraging them to do what they actually WANT to do. Giving them advice on how they can get help.
A lot of mners have been through abortions themselves and know they can be very hard to deal with physically and emotionally, they also know that many people DO regret having them, and wouldn't wish that feeling on anyone. A woman who is going to have an abortion, and knows that it IS the best thing for her, isn't likely to post on MN asking for advice.

You said As to term limits - honestly? Largely irrelevant

The term limits are very far from irrelevant. Ireland makes much play of its "abortion now available on demand" (but please read the small print - only for 12 weeks)

Why do you assume a response is only to you?

Because you quoted me and used the second person. You did not make a general point: you responded to me. Perhaps make general points more clear in future?

Like the Republic of Ireland then? With its 12 week cut off

I am beginning to doubt your reading comprehension. Obviously not. Why would I, with my philosophical support for to term abortion but political pragmatism support for UK status quo of 24 week term limit, make you say such a thing?

I've been perfectly clear where I stand. If you're going to respond to me, please do it in good faith.

I said the legislation should be changed from gatekeeping to elective and the term limit - although I don't support it - is irrelevant so not worth campaigning to change

Like the Republic of Ireland then? With its 12 week cut off resulting in women still travelling to England with its oppressive "gate - keeping" system.

The cut off is very important and at the moment options for women in England, Wales and Scotland are better than in Ireland.

Please read what I say if you're going to respond to it

Why do you assume a response is only to you? The OP's premise is there should be abortion on demand for no reason and to term. My response was directed to her and others who think that is a reasonable and achievable objective.

And continually saying that a feminist position can't be articulated, even on a feminist forum, for fear the nasty ones will read it - well, that's not a position I'mevergoing to take

I don't think anyone has said views can't be articulated. But the assumption that extremist views on any matter which are dangerous should not be challenged is not a position I'm prepared to take.

The women who see this are not weak or complacent but pragmatic

Indeed. But presumably some posters would prefer to retain their ideological purity.

So good luck with the campaign to remove any time limit.

Is anybody on this thread actually reading anyone else's posts?

Please read what I say if you're going to respond to it.

I said the legislation should be changed from gatekeeping to elective and the term limit - although I don't support it - is irrelevant so not worth campaigning to change.

I'm pro choice and think abortions should be elective as women are perfectly capable of knowing if they should bring a life into this world or not.

The current time limits were set on the advice of the Royal College of Obs and Gynaecologists (I think I read that somewhere -happy to be corrected) and seem about right to me.

I think elective until term is too emotive for the general population to reasonably debate and as it doesn't happen in reality is not necessary to campaign for.

A woman would have to be in an extreme circumstance to want an abortion that late and therefore, should be given a lot of support to help her deal with the situation and the baby if it's born.

I think this is foolish, complacent and naive. The legislation we have is not elective termination. It's a reluctant, gatekept piece of legislation dating from the 1960s. What works in practice now is fragile, not supported by the actual legislation. It needs to change

You do know that opinion polls in the UK consistently show support amongst women for reducing the current 24 week limit. So good luck with the campaign to remove any time limit.

Fraggling

'Is adoption worse than not existing at all?'

I never understand this.
Like when people say would you rather never to have existed

If you have never existed then you don't have any opinions as you never were

The question wasn't intended for the theoretical non- person but for the posters who are saying that in a very late term abortion adoption isn't a solution. Why isn't it? As far as I can see the reasons against it are it would be too traumatic for the women and/or adoption often has a poor outcome.

Fraggling, you would have existed if you were a 39 week term baby that doctors and midwives had to kill/slaughter and remove you from a womans vagina/stomach.

You'd have existed to those doctors, midwives and nurses. They'd have seen your face, your hands, your body and have to live with knowing they were disguarding a viable and healthy life into the incinerator like it was nothing all because a woman wants to exercise her right to her choice for a full term abortion when, unless she part of the 0000.00001% of women that get to term not knowing they are pregnant, could have had one before 24 weeks or just took the pill instead of being upset about gaining a few pounds like the OP! Or, silly of me to say, used a bloody condom 😣.

I find it hard to believe that a vegan, someone who won't even eat an unfertilised egg that has been dropped out on the grass from a hen and would be otherwise wasted if not eaten, is happy and pushing for full term abortions. The mind boggles.

Perhaps an angle to make herself feel better over 5 abortions, who knows. It will never happen thankfully!

And continually saying that a feminist position can't be articulated, even on a feminist forum, for fear the nasty ones will read it - well, that's not a position I'm ever going to take.

You are shooting yourself in the foot with this, to my mind.

Do you mean OP is?

I'm saying the legislation should change from gatekeeping on mental health grounds to elective because as it currently stands, it could be taken away in a heartbeat.

I'm saying that although I support to term abortion, there's little point in campaigning for it since it won't happen much and when it does, it'll be covered by the exceptions we already have.

But the feminist belief can never be that society has the right to control a woman's body for her. What I take as a philosophical position is not the same thing as what I prioritise as political ambitions.