Times article, injury fears over rugbys transwomen drives referees off pitch

The intention of taking testosterone may not be to be performance-enhance, but there is no doubt at all that it will be performance-enhancing.

Verity should not play men’s rugby because it wouldn’t be safe for Verity, and Verity should not be playing women’s rugby while taking testosterone because it gives performance-enhancing effects, hence why it’s a banned substance. There should not be a drug testing exemption for Verity just because of Verity’s feelings.

And if that doesn’t seem “inclusive” for Verity, then I don’t mind, because I’m thinking about the women who have to tackle Verity, scrum against Verity, and be tackled by someone whose body has been enhanced by testosterone. So I am being inclusive of way more people overall.

@DancelikeEmmaGoldman

The person in the article , Verity, was born a woman. No male invading female space here.

But it's not 'doping' in this case as it's not for performance enhancing and no doubt will come under some sort of exemption.

Those of you saying that as she is taking hormones to be a man she should play men's rugby are the same who are up in arms when a trans woman taking female hormones wants to play female sport.

I think that this particular player is manipulating the rules around gender separation of rugby. Cake and eat it comes to mind.

Women’s sport will have to go underground. Secret venues at midnight. Code words and lookouts. Camoflague kit and underpants checks. The first rule of women’s cricket is that no-one talks about women’s cricket.

I can’t even see how we got to the point that otherwise ordinary organisations made up of, presumably rational citizens, are making rules which defy biology, science and commonsense, in order to cater to the demands of a small number of men with a paraphilia.

Also, in a sporting context taking testosterone is doping, so as unhappy as it will make Verity I'm afraid Verity should no longer be allowed to play on the women's team unless Verity willingly gives up the T shots. Which Verity would no doubt choose not to do, which should logically be considered as a choice to forfeit playing the game rather than an indication that the rules should be bent because taking testosterone is just really important to some people.

Move on and we can become more tolerant, inclusive and understanding.

And also a lot more frequently injured. I knew a boy who ended up paralyzed as the result of a rugby collision as a teenager. Think how much more common it will be if we've effectively encouraged mixed sex rugby for adults! Yay, progress!

So, my understanding up to now:

women who have a feeling about identifying as men and are taking testosterone, are allowed in women's sports; but if women are taking part in the same sport and taking testosterone but not identifying as men, then they are disallowed.

That is just as bad as admitting men into women sports. It is allowing some women to take banned substances, because of their gender feelz; but such doping is prohibited for women who are simply women.

At the moment she a born female , taking hormones , still identifying it would appear as female , therefore no cause or right to test her.*

If she's born female and taking hormones then surely there's cause and right to suspect verity of doping and test accordingly?

I would imagine that this trans man who still is identifying as female hence name will not play a physical contact game with men because

1. She will never have the same physicality as a male rugby player despite the hormone treatment thus is likely to be injured

2 once she plays men's rugby any return to the female rugby that is when she will be subject to testing of hormone levels

1. The acceptance by men team or any male team opposition to a 'female' playing. Hate to think what could happen in a scrum !

At the moment she a born female , taking hormones , still identifying it would appear as female , therefore no cause or right to test her.

Not read whole thread.

All these sports bodies have decided testosterone levels are literally the only difference between men and women.

So logically a woman on testosterone has all the same attributes, characteristics as a man, and should play with the men.

?? there's no logic here.

ineed yes. Plus the hugely increased chance of getting on the team, and minimal chance of injury.

Dd played rugby at a very local level as a preteen. At 10yrs old she was 5'5 and slim, but obviously physically stronger and heavier than most peers. Which meant for a short period instead of being an average player with an average chance of making the team for a match, she was much in demand. Perhaps she should take it back up, her skills might be naturally very average and have no chance of making it on to a team of her peers but at 6' I'm sure she'd make it onto a team of 12yr olds.

pop iirc it's usually sky that does the boxing, which of course they should also be happy to have mixed matches in.

Yeah cold. What is verity thinking

But doesn't Verity feel the literal violence of being misgendered as female and put on their team, given she identifies as male? At what point will she play with the blokes? Or am I confused?

This is where women lose out big time. Forced to play with Male.bodied people and forced to play with women doped up on testosterone.

Women get beaten battered bruised and broken either way.

Yes it's not safe for transmen to play biological men but its not safe for women either way.

This is where the word no comes in I'm.afraid. they may not like.it but in the Interest of safety and fairness they all have to hear it as far as I'm.concerned.

Ineedacupofteafesperately
Yes, agree totally. And such contact sports could also provide limitless opportunities for sexual assault, on top of beating and battering. Rugby tackles, for example.

And where trans is concerned, this continues from the playing field, into the changing room, and the showers.

No.

That is a dude. With a beard. What the hell are the opposition team supposed to think?

Someone upthread said why would transwomen WANT to play in women's teams since it really wouldn't be much of a challenge given their typically male physique.

Another poster noted that transwomen seem to want to play sports which involve a lot of body contact like rugby and roller derby.

I wonder if there are some for whom the idea of being able to beat and batter women and dress it up as sport is really the draw. The other potential reason is validation but that could equally be achieved by being in a woman's darts team, and if you gave even a tiny shit about biological women then presumably that's what you'd do, not something where you could severely harm someone.

I am certainly looking forward to the Owen Jones/Aimee Challenor match-up.

Going up against each other, no holds barred. No quarter asked; no quarter given.

To quote Jolyon Maughaum, it would a demonstration of how the 'simple joy of sport can transcend fear and hate'.

Wonder if the Beeb would cover it.

Great idea popchyk I'll identify as the ref so I can judge it as safe for all.

But referees say they have to take it on trust rather than check whether a player has been cleared by the Rugby Football Union (RFU).

Wait, what? So not only are the actual rules dangerous for women players but they're not even operating on the rules; they're operating on self-ID?

Jesus fucking Christ.

But y'know: we don't live in a patriarchy or anything. Perish the thought.

"I think a mixed sex teams for transpeople and anyone else who doesn't mind being in the mixed sex team"

Seems perfectly reasonable.

And since transgender people are going to struggle to find enough people to make up a team, then surely this is the one area where trans allies can step up to help? They can be in the teams in order to help out their trans siblings.

Seven a side:

Owen Jones, Maria Miller, Peter Tatchell, Jess Bradley, Stephanie Hayden, Lily Madigan, Heather Peto

versus

Laurie Penny, Adrian Harrop, Penny Mordaunt, Ruth Hunt, Sophie Cook, Aimee Challenor, Munroe Bergdorf

Full contact of course.

It is the absolute least that trans allies can do.

Otherwise their support is just empty rhetoric.

Isn't it?

Women's sports should be solely for women who've not had the physical benefit of levels of testosterone above those found naturally in women.

@Qcng That was what I was trying to say but you've said it a lot clearer. Thank you.

I did used to play Mixed Hockey. It was considered by the single sex players to be a crazy game. But you could tell the male players were definitely holding back within tackles against female players.

Looking at twitter, Roller Derby is very popular with Ma'ams.

Male rugby is not safe for transmen Female rugby is not safe for transwomen

I think you mean male rugby is not safe for transmen, and females are not safe with transwomen playing in their team.

What's the solution?
I think a mixed sex teams for transpeople and anyone else who doesn't mind being in the mixed sex team.