Times article, injury fears over rugbys transwomen drives referees off pitch

Perhaps verity hasn't started hormone therapy and her facial hair is as a result of her polycystic ovary problems.

Roller derby is a very rough and dangerous sport. A friend of mine's daughter played it for years but was always breaking bones or getting other serious injuries.Bringing men into women's teams is asking for trouble.
Horribly, it may be that something awful has to happen before people come to their senses on this.

This is from the England RFU transgender policy.

A player may only play contact rugby in the sex they were assigned at birth until written confirmation is received from the RFU that they may play in their identified gender, save that a Transgender male player who decides to undergo hormone treatment will not be eligible to participate in the female category of rugby from the date that hormone treatment has commenced.

Why is Verity allowed to play on the women's team when Verity is taking testosterone?

*The RFU is opening itself up to civil and maybe criminal liability here.

Could be a corporate manslaughter charge.*

This type of comment is exactly why there cannot be any reasonable discussion on this topic. ( both sides )

Verity should be competing in the male leagues, just as the US wrestler Mack Beggs who was fighting against girls at school whilst transitioning and taking testosterone, is now competing against males.
Rugby has the highest incident of doping cases if you look at the UK anti doping site, and in my opinion taking testosterone and playing sport is doping.

The RFU is opening itself up to civil and maybe criminal liability here.

Could be a corporate manslaughter charge.

Oh I thought a spire of bells was clanging there.

Fekko Mesmac - based in Leeds. Involved with a West Yorkshire Police. You know.

I’m feeling more confused than ever after reading this thread about what exactly those pesky rules for FWR actually cover.

It seems to be completely acceptable to correctly-sex Verity Smith and refer to Verity as “she”. Why is it ok to refer to Verity as she when it is not ok to refer to any of the current crop of TRAs as he? Is it because Verity is biologically female and therefore is still not afforded the same status and courtesy as men, despite identifying as one? It would seem, astonishingly, that the monitors haven’t bothered to report any posters for correctly-sexing Verity. Very confusing.

Mesmac - where have I heard that?

Interesting language from Verity Smith (the bearded person playing with Rotherham Ladies Club) who was born female and works for MESMAC - Verity describes themselves as ‘an LGBT’ - is this another post-facts language shift? These are completely different categories.

www.rotherhamadvertiser.co.uk/sport/view,worth-fighting-for-the-sporting-story-of-transmale-rugby-player-verity-smit_29725.htm

Extremely sensible post, GeorgeFayne.

DH can't do the sport we used to love (which in practice means I can't either) because of medical reasons. There's simply no point whining about it, just have to find other things to do.

In the case of rugby, TW and TM physically modified due to testosterone should pay in the non-women's team if it's physically safe enough for them, or else find alternative non-contact sports. In non-contact sports there should be nothing to stop them participating in non-women's sports (the 'open' category formerly designated 'men's') - of course, they might not necessarily win but frankly, tough. Other people being treated a huge range of physical and mental conditions can't win either.

From the article

Last month Kelly Morgan, a trans woman, said she wanted to play in the Welsh women’s leagues despite her physical advantage. “I do feel guilt but what can you do?” she said

Well you could stop trying to destroy women’s sport for your validation. Just a thought

And

The RFU refused to say how many trans people it had authorised to play in their identified gender. It also did not respond to questions about injuries involving women and trans players

Reminds me of the NSPCC - logical questions we cannot answer! Go silent

Women's sports will have to go underground
This won't be necessary if the governing bodies stop behaving like cowardly snivelling shits and revert to the old rules of women's competitions being open only to people with xx chromosomes (intersex competitors to be assessed on an individual basis), and enforce rules against doping.

I'm pretty sure the RFU's trans policy has changed very recently. The current policy is here

Can anyone find the old policy?

From memory it said that trans players could play for the opposite sex team, subject to an assessment that they were of an appropriate size and weight to play in that team safely. The size/weight/strength criterion seems to have been dropped from what I can see, even though that was for safety reasons.

As much as this is not a popular view in 2019, there are circumstances where certain sports are just not an option for some individuals.

For example, my male patient with only one kidney is not allowed to play contact sports. I have another adolescent patient with a colostomy who would love to wrestle, but cannot. A female patient of mine had to discontinue cheerleading because it was causing complications with her peritoneal dialysis. All of these young people managed their disappointment with great maturity and insight, acknowledging that their medical conditions had consequences that were far reaching, but beyond their control.

I'm sorry, but if the "treatment" for gender dysphoria results in an unsafe or competitive advantage over other players, then it's appropriate to say inclusion is just not an option.

RFU policy states that: "a Transgender male player who decides to undergo hormone therapy will not be eligible to participate in the female category of
rugby from the date that hormone therapy has commenced"

So I don't understand how Verity is allowed to play women's rugby?

Before, transgender players couldn’t play for a ladies team. Now, they can play in the gender they were born in depending upon physicality and ability.

Hilarious, so the bio men want to play with the females, the bio women masquerading as men still want to play with the females.

“A lot of people look at me and as soon as they see that facial hair, that’s it,” he says. “The biggest problem is from people who don’t understand

Ok, so you have been taking testosterone in order to gain male secondary sex characteristics so people think you are male and then get upset when people think you are male......

Poor Verity wasn't allowed to play when the opposing team clocked what was going on, what a bunch of TERFS they must be!

Yes chatty, why must women accept feeling uncomfortable so that people who are biologically male don't have to feel uncomfortable? We can easily argue with the stupidity of having mixed sex teams, and I used to think that it was those practical things that only mattered. Until I realised that it was men saying I feel like I'm a woman , and women are not allowed to say, I feel nothing like a transwoman. Because men have spoken.

This whole political imposition on women is so fucking ridiculous.

Why do women keep being asked to be kind, over staying physically safe? (Or over feeling comfortable? Or over being able to hang out with just their female mates? Or over being able to participate at all, if those women can’t be in a mixed sex environment for whatever reason?

Why do men keep not being affected by this at all? Why do men still get to ignore the effects on women this ‘inclusion’ is creating or worse, still get to set the rules which affect women?

Why is this genderist politics not being immediately challenged as being MASSIVELY SEXIST and ANTI WOMAN?

If for any other reason there were suddenly lobbying for women players and refs to stop playing their own game to save their own safety, dignity, privacy or if any new policies were brought in by any governing body in sport forcing that effect.. there’d be public uproar! Everyone would be like fuck off with your sexism and woman hating.

^ ^ This situation IS that situation!
I really think we have to just keep on making noise to the sporting authorities and fast before more girls and women get put off from playing sport, an exclusion which we know will negatively affect their health, happiness (and possibly wealth if they are potential or actual professional players.)

The authorities need to do their jobs and challenge this by setting some proper rules and enforcing them NOW before they get women hurt or killed and have to face court cases.

What's the solution?
I think a mixed sex teams for transpeople and anyone else who doesn't mind being in the mixed sex team.

What Qcng says. This is the only fair way. Third space is needed in sports. Then nobody need label themselves if they didn’t want to, everyone would know the rules at the outset, nobody would be taken by surprise by opposite-sex bodies in the showers, changing room, opposite-sex people having contact with them on the pitch.

Fairness in physical equivalencies wouldn’t be a basis for playing the third space team, it would be just based on enabling sports participation for all.

Maybe wealthy mega ‘equality’ charity Stonewall could sponsor it, you don’t see them often spending any money (just doing activities to earn or raise it)?

Looks like in later versions of the Sunday Times they are using a photo of a male trans rugby player (the one who can 'fold women like deckchairs' instead of a female trans rugby player. Much better
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/too-strong-trans-players-in-womens-rugby-are-driving-referees-away-0jnlvk89m?shareToken=53caabf1b0b1e123a13eff59c6ea949b&fbclid=IwAR0z_yCyxS0Xb6q7vfvYf196kXEaLWP3lk0RJl4-bs94VVwGxFDv_1HmRVw

Another poster noted that transwomen seem to want to play sports which involve a lot of body contact like rugby and roller derby.

I'm wondering if the pattern is just due to superior strength and power being the biggest natural advantage men have over women. I mean, many fairly unathletic, unskilled men could beat most women in competitions which rely purely on physicality, without too much trouble.

Sport where brute strength needs to be coupled with considerable skill might be a bigger ask.

The person in the article , Verity, was born a woman. No male invading female space here.

Yes, I know. I generally manage to read for comprehension.

The point is that there are many men seeking to play women’s sport, by pretending to be women. For example Hannah Mouncey and Laurel Hubbard.

The player known as Verity is a different issue, since she’s a woman, playing in a women’s league, but with the additional testosterone, which is illegal for other female players.

In all avenues of life, making life-changing decisions closes off some avenues of opportunity. Having children means exchanging one kind of freedom for another kind of satisfaction, for example.

The decision to present as the opposite sex, should, sensibly, preclude the opportunity of playing some kinds of competitive sport because it would be unfair, unethical or unwise. That’s life; having your cake and eating it too, often means some people get no cake at all.