Times article, injury fears over rugbys transwomen drives referees off pitch

Here's a report on Verity Smith from last year which confirms that they are taking testosterone as part of their transition and also includes the following:

He is still eligible to play for a women’s team at this stage of transitioning but he knows there will come a time when he will have to switch and play for a men’s side.

www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/transgender-rugby-player-rival-spits-1945162

So is wheelchair rugby also for able-bodied people

I think this is a slightly different issue. I know a couple of able bodied blokes who play wheelchair basketball and are welcomed because without them there would not be sufficient numbers for those who are wheelchair-bound to create teams.

It obviously is something that has to be done at the request of wheelchair users and not forced upon them but it can in some circumstances allow for inclusion rather than being an imposition. I have no idea whether or not that is true in Verity's case.

I think it’s within the rules of wheelchair rugby that one, or maybe two people on each side are able bodied. Pretty sure I’ve seen that on tv.

So is wheelchair rugby also for able-bodied people

It would appear so but why does she/ he want to do it ? To prove another point ?

What are you telling me now?

People who don't use or need a wheelchair in day to day life, play wheelchair sports?

That's fucking outrageous.

So is wheelchair rugby also for able-bodied people?

I always thought that it was for those people who actually needed a wheelchair all of the time.

Maybe there's a league where able-bodied and people with a physical disability requiring a wheelchair play in a mixed ability match?

Which is fine if everyone knows the rules.

I think the average person in the street would assume that all the competitors actually needed the wheelchair at all times, though.

Just to throw a grenade in the works Verity now play wheelchair rugby league

twitter.com/bbc5live/status/1102512689157308417?s=21

@Popchyk

Thank you for the summary saves me reading the link

I wonder if there are some for whom the idea of being able to beat and batter women and dress it up as sport is really the draw. The other potential reason is validation but that could equally be achieved by being in a woman's darts team, and if you gave even a tiny shit about biological women then presumably that's what you'd do, not something where you could severely harm someone.

YY

killler, he makes the point that rugby goggles were extensively trialled and risk assessed before they were permitted by the RFU. And rightly so because they might have had the potential to impact on player welfare.

But putting males into women's rugby has not been risk assessed by the RFU. At all. Player welfare (for the women) has not even been considered. And yet the potential impacts for injury are considerable.

As a lawyer, he found that alarming.

@Ineedacupofteadesperately exactly this. Whilst being applauded from the sidelines.

This type of comment is exactly why there cannot be any reasonable discussion on this topic. ( both sides )

Why?

But doesn't Verity feel the literal violence of being misgendered as female and put on their team, given she identifies as male? At what point will she play with the blokes? Or am I confused?

How does she possibly deal with the crippling dysphoria in order to go out on the field and play? Truly awe inspiring.

You can't say to one woman that she can't take it as it's cheating and another that she can. Well evidently you can, but it's bullshit.

Also, I don't see how anyone could argue that they have a medical need to take testosterone, because gender dysphoria is no longer considered to be an illness. I don't think you could get a medical exemption to take a drug for a non-medical condition, could you?

@Popchyk

Thanks to that link for the lawyer.

He is not an in house rugby lawyer though.

He is a barrister who happens to represent rugby clients at on field disciplinary hearings or rugby related issues.

Many barristers do this and I wouldn't class him as a specialist although his points are interesting

I'm sorry, but if the "treatment" for gender dysphoria results in an unsafe or competitive advantage over other players, then it's appropriate to say inclusion is just not an option.

I agree.

The rules around testosterone exist because in females it's a performance enhancing drug. Motivation is not the issue. You can't say to one woman that she can't take it as it's cheating and another that she can. Well evidently you can, but it's bullshit.

Sign me up for a ticket to watch that game, Popchyk.

Here's a rugby lawyer explaining his thoughts:

twitter.com/timoconnorbl/status/1165193599098720257

"However, my primary concern here isn’t fairness at elite levels, which is a small if high-profile sample of all participants. I’m much more concerned about safety at lower levels in a collision sport. The risks are such it has to have proper risk assessment.

A policy based - insofar as appears to be here - on a study of small samples at distance level on performance in running (the paper expressly noting it doesn’t cover explosive/power events) is not a performance assessment for a collision sport, still less risk assessment.

Full and proper risk assessments and trials were done on goggles and prostheses in the pitch, and are being done on the rule changes based on your research. I cannot understand how similar assessments are not done here".

Thank you GeorgeFayne for your excellent post bringing some perspective.

I am reminded of a young lad of my acquaintance who had meningitis as a toddler leaving him severely physically, though not mentally, disabled.

He is now in his early 20s. He cannot close his mouth, cannot eat properly, cannot talk, can only walk very small distances, has poor motor skills so uses a large keys keyboard to communicate.

There are a million ordinary things he will never be able to do, yet he never whinges and whines about how 'oppressed' he is. He makes the most of his life and has a wicked sense of humour. He is a pleasure to be around.

When I hear 'boo hoo 'snot fair if I don't get to cheat at sport' I think of him and cannot find words to express my contempt for people who are perfectly able bodied and who no one is suggesting should not be allowed to compete as the sex they actually are provided they abide by the same doping rules as the rest of us.

..

@Popchyk

Because their has to be a reasonable debate on this and not people just throwing random comments out with out backing it up.

You have now so people can read and form a view point.

Perhaps verity hasn't started hormone therapy and her facial hair is as a result of her polycystic ovary problems.

However, since taking testosterone he has developed a full beard and last year he was attacked by a player on an opposing rugby team before being outed on the internet as transgender.

From here: www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/transgender-rugby-player-rival-spits-1945162

I've just had a look at the world rugby guidelines and these seem to allow people like Verity to compete in the women's teams.

For the avoidance of doubt, a Transgender male Player who decides to undergo hormone treatment will not be eligible to participate in the female category of competition at an World Rugby Tournament after that treatment has commenced, unless and until clause 3.5 applies.

3.5 Once a Transgender Player has satisfied the relevant eligibility requirements and has started participating in World Rugby Tournaments in the category of competition consistent with his/her gender identity, he/she may not then switch back to participating in the other gender category in World Rugby Tournaments unless and until (a) at least four years have passed since the first World Rugby Tournament in which he/she participated as a Transgender Player; and (b) he/she satisfies all of the conditions for eligibility to compete in the other gender category.

I think this means that women who dope with testosterone because they have a male gender identity can play in the women's teams, as long as they have never played in a male team, or at least 4 years have passed since the first game played in a male team.

Nothing in this Policy will be deemed to permit, excuse or justify noncompliance with any of those requirements, including (without limitation) any requirement for an Player to obtain a Therapeutic Use Exemption for the use of a substance on the WADA Prohibited List, such as testosterone, spironolactone or GnRH agonists.

Does this mean that women with a male gender identity have to apply for a therapeutic use exemption to allow them to dope with testosterone?

Feel free to explain your thinking, killer.

Sale Sharks sued for negligence. Cillian Willis first player to sue an English club and medics for negligence over brain injury.

www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/cillian-willis-concussion-case-due-before-court-next-year-1.3633568

Sports club admits corporate manslaughter:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10468121/Sports-club-admits-corporate-manslaughter-after-banana-boat-death.html