Times article, injury fears over rugbys transwomen drives referees off pitch

A friend of DS's plays rugby, and even at 10 and 11, the boys are sorted into teams by height and weight.

The whole thing's a farce, and it must be coming to a head soon.

Transwomen sports cheats - we see you. We know exactly what you're doing.

Why is it so hard to say no to these people?

It isn't to people who aren't craven cowards.

I don't think her local club would tolerate males who suddenly decided they wanted to be female and play with the girls' teams (and as a club safeguarding officer I'd be one if the first to vociferously object) but never say never. Thankfully I'm now living a lot further North than my native Brighton area - I imagine the pressure to be woke is a lot stronger there.

My DD plays rugby and played happily alongside the boys until the end of primary school. Now in year 8 and in a girls U13 team, I can't imagine her playing against boys' teams any longer - the boys have suddenly started getting considerably bigger! Interestingly, there are countries that allow mixed sex rugby until age 18. The Netherlands being one of them.

I’d far rather Verity plays on the women’s team than Kelly Morgan

I don't think it's helpful to play I would rather.

They both, for different reasons, should not play on a women's rugby team.

I don't want men in women's sports, I'm on record saying that quite a lot on mn. But I'm particularly pissed off today at a woman openly and apparently legally flouting anti-doping rules.

All the effort and expense that goes into regulating and trying to prevent and catch and punish drugs cheats in sports, and here we have somebody who can wave the gender magic wand and openly flout the (usual) rules to dope and gain an unfair competitive advantage.

It's not ok.

I'd rather the very idea that Kelly might play on the women's team be dismissed as crazy and dangerous, and that Verity gently be told that if Verity would like to remain on the women's team then Verity will need to stop taking performance enhancing substances.

Yes, me too. Why is it so hard to say no to these people?

This is madness. Rugby should be one of the last sports to be mixed sex. We're watching the World Cup at the moment- and I cannot even begin to fathom how a male bodied person can think it's ok to play against a female bodied person. The sheer physicality of the male bodied players would absolutely squash them. Imagine that red-carded tackle on Owen Farrell in the Eng-USA game on a female bodied player! It's downright dangerous to put either player in that position. Not to mention the ref. Madness.

I'd rather the very idea that Kelly might play on the women's team be dismissed as crazy and dangerous, and that Verity gently be told that if Verity would like to remain on the women's team then Verity will need to stop taking performance enhancing substances.

I’d far rather Verity plays on the women’s team than Kelly Morgan. I think that even with testosterone, strength isn’t increased to the extent that the person gets the anywhere near the benefit that male bodies do. Even small amounts of testosterone can trigger facial hair. Women are at far more risk from the Kellys in the rugby world than the Veritys.

And again, anecdote from my youth - 17 year old boy paralyzed by a rugby injury. Now imagine the same force that paralyzed him hitting a girl or woman's smaller body with the less thick bones and in particular the less thick neck.

I'm not seeing what's kind about allowing that to happen.

It's almost like the old, non-"kind" system of separating sporting leagues by sex was the correct one.

There should not be exceptions for Verity. Both Verity and Kelly are cheating, on any morally comprehensible understanding of the word "cheating" (they are not "cheating" according to the batshit rules of the RFU who decided to sacrifice fairness and safety on the altar of inclusivity).

But in addition to cheating, Kelly is also putting women's bodily safety at risk.

It's kind of like the difference between burglary and aggravated burglary - both are wrong, but the latter (where the householder gets beaten up) rightly attracts a higher sentence.

Again, why should there be exemptions for people like Verity? Why are their needs more important than everyone else's?

I stand corrected.

That quote isn't Verity, coffee, that quote is Kelly

Verity is merely taking testosterone at a level which would count as cheating were it to be undertaken by anyone who shared Verity's biological sex but didn't utter the magic words " I feel trans."

Kelly on the other hand is biologically male and is not merely participating unfairly, but is putting Kelly's competitors at risk of serious injury (including spinal injuries).

I do feel guilt but what can you do?

I've seen this quote so much and it boils my blood.

What you can do Verity is to stop playing a high risk contact sport while you are under the effects of testosterone. It's called doping, and is outlawed for a good reason.

What do WADA say about it all?

Not rugby related but sports related. The IAAF have included a mixed 400m relay event at the Athletics World Championships in Doha. Teams of 2 women and 2 men, the semi finals were yesterday and it showcased how much faster (and bigger) the men were. Couldn't help wondering what had motivated the IAAF to include the event

Seven a side:

Owen Jones, Maria Miller, Peter Tatchell, Jess Bradley, Stephanie Hayden, Lily Madigan, Heather Peto

versus

Laurie Penny, Adrian Harrop, Penny Mordaunt, Ruth Hunt, Sophie Cook, Aimee Challenor, Munroe Bergdorf

I would pay good money to see that.

I did some digging recently with regard to males being included in female rugby teams.

All international policies I found say that mixed sex contact rugby should not be played after age 12.

However say the magic words, I identify as a woman and hey presto it’s suddenly absolutely fine.

U18 trans identified males can play in female teams as long as they claim to be women and their parents agree to let them play.

How is a 17 year old trans identified male different from a 17 year old male? How is the risk lessened in any way? Does the signing of the declaration mitigate the risk faced by the females on the team?

Makes me so bloody angry.

Comments are heartening on the article.

I sincerely hope that's the correct interpretation and Verity has found a positive way to play rugby without impacting the women's game. That would be an excellent outcome.
I'm somewhat curious as to whether this sort of approach is also adopted by trans people born and socialised male...

I note verity's bbc quote:
'“In every sports you come across you’re going to find somebody that is at the top level and somebody at bottom level”

If trans people don't want to destroy women's sports, I guess they should take note and be prepared to be lower in the testosterone-benefitted league rather than higher in the non-T league? Or take a side-step as it seems verity has done.

OK cool

Idea of hordes of non disabled people taking up sports for disabled people and pushing disabled people out pissed me off.

Pleased to hear its not the case.

There's an article about wheelchair rugby here. It seems to be mixed sex and a mix of disabled and able-bodied. Sounds like the right team for Verity to play in.

www.skysports.com/rugby-league/news/12196/11819041/wheelchair-rugby-league-is-this-the-most-inclusive-sport

Fair enough if it is in the rules that a certain number of able-bodied competitors can also take part. And if it works to the benefit of people who do have a physical disability, then great. Everyone is happy.

The good thing is that this is an area where Verity can use her passion, without any detriment to women. It is already mixed sex.

Marvellous.

As an aside: weren't the Challenors involved in wheelchair rugby?

If I remember correctly wheelchair rugby players are graded on disability, and the team is only allowed a certain number of points on the pitch at the time. I'm not an expert by the way, just an occasional spectator