Greta Thunberg

stumbledin that is fascinating about cloud computing, I hadn't considered that at all. Thank you.

I have mixed feelings about GT. I don't think anyone has the first clue how to reverse or even stop climate change and I am deeply sceptical about the effectiveness of the climate change protests. But she's definitely an unusual, very driven girl and I like her style and the way she does things. Not sure she's not being bankrolled by the Soros foundation, but if she encourages my teens to be more aware of their carbon footprint then its all good.

I largely agree with stumbledin's post. Turning this into some kind of intergenerational issue is foolish. Not least because older generations have been less wasteful than younger in many respects. If anything it is more a rich/poor issue, even within the west. Poorer people live in smaller houses, drive fewer cars, take fewer holidays, consume less.

I do slightly query this line though

The only fault that baby boomer have is that somehow their children turned into the yuppies and loads of money generation, who over consumed to spite their parents

Firstly yuppies were, in the UK, a phenomenum of one part of the country. There were no yuppies in my area, we got mass unemployment not yuppies and loads of money in the 80s, so again more of a rich/poor situation. Secondly the yuppies mostly were baby boomers. I'm Generation X. We were mostly children at the time.

I also agree with those posters who have questioned the parents role in all of this. Thunberg is a very vulnerable young woman whose mental health struggles are clear to see. How much her parents have contributed to those issues is unknowable but it is clear they have willingly pushed her into the spotlight. I'm not very comfortable with the whole situation to be honest. And yes, the press absolutely will build her up to knock her down. They always do.

I haven't listened closely to the content of what she says. I don't hear her saying she has the answers, or that she blames old people, or that it is easy. She wants the adults in charge to step up to their responsibilities.

The message I hear is

'hey people in charge, start listening to the science and put the climate crisis at the front of all your policies now! I shouldn't have to be telling you this, it's obvious!'

edit: ... will be as long-lasting

I agree with CharleyParley, and stumbledin's post was also great.
And the worse still is turning the issue into an intergenerational conflict and that she is put forward as a symbol of the sacrificed youth. Whereas young people in white western Europe have not lost their childhood. Young people in developing countries who cant get to schools, have to walk miles to get water, child brides, are the ones who have lost their childhood.

And more than likely young people in white western europe have consumed and produced more damage to the atmosphere than many baby boomers who dont use the internet / computers, aren't jetting round the world on gap year holidays. The idea that people living in the still devasted communities of pit villages etc., are somehow to blame for the rampant consumer capitalism that cost them their jobs is just insulting.

I'm of the boomer generation. Back in the the early 70's we were the ones shouting the loudest about avoiding pollution and plastic and comsumerism. In fact, we "dropped out" and lived on a farm in the jungle with no amenities whatsoever, no running water, not even a proper toilet and no electricity. I've done this many times throughout my life and love the simple life, as do most of my friends of my age. I never, ever use air comditioning, not even in the tropics -- it's the first thing I switch off. Yes, I do travel by air occasionally but never on holiday. So to be told my generation is to blame for the mess is rather shocking. Oh, and I've been vegetarian for 50 years, without making a big deal out of it or virtue signalling about it. Meat simply disgusts me.

I am always worried about young people hauled into the limelight and made a star before they have the maturity to rise above fame and to understand that adults are manipulating them.

Of course I believe in her message and I'm glad that she's raising awareness, but I'm not sure the result will be as long when the outrage dies down, as it certainly will. How many of these young people will make a permanent change to their lives? It's wonderful to be part of a huge visible movement, but it's the simple one-on-one changes we each of us must make that counts the most, invisible to others but vital if we are to save the planet.

Oh, and her talking about how her life is destroyed, when I've seen the actual ruined lives of children in India and South America, just really, really sounds like white privilege to me.

She is 16 not 12! When I was 16 I was travelling around Europe alone. I think some of the attitude towards Greta is cultural differences too. She is Swedish and Scandinavian teens are more independent and also more used to giving their opinions than British teens generally speaking. Debate is encouraged in schools and you are allowed to question and disagree with adults. The British culture is a much more authoritarian culture - at home and in the schools.

Who knows, her ASD might have a protective effect to keep her calm, focused and able to dismiss all the misogynistic ranting as merely a distraction.
There is some risk from nutters, but she's older than Malala, who got shot in the head and carried on regardless.

I have to question why her parents allowed her to travel to NY with a bunch strangers on a boat

Her father travelled with her (not disagreeing with your main points, just a clarification).

I think she is amazing but agree with those posters who are worried about the effects of the media attention on her. For instance, Aron Banks ‘joked’ that the yacht she was sailing in might have an accident. He has criticised Mary Beard too but she is eloquent, articulate and mature enough to give as good as she gets.

Some psychologist suggested she was in a similar position to a child star. That said, her response to Donald Trump’s comment was brilliant.

Brilliant thread & I especially agree with Stumbled's analysis. Greta's very lovable & seems to be being used by powerful corporate interests as the main branding image to push their agenda forward. Classic cult of personality stuff, appealing to the emotions. What she actually says is pretty much content-free: no reference to the military being no. 1 contributor to climate change, etc. There are vested interests waiting in the wings to grab what they can of the new markets opened up by techno-fixes, and business goes on as usual. Inequality gets worse etc.

I agree with others in having concerns about the pressure she is under and what effect this is having on her mental health. I really admire her and agree she is a good role model for teen girls but I suspect she will disappear from view quite quickly as she will need to take time out from all this pressure. She certainly seems quite vulnerable to me and I have to question why her parents allowed her to travel to NY with a bunch strangers on a boat

I would like my children to go to school and be taught truths and facts and nuance, and be given the opportunity to discuss and debate ideas, to strive for an understanding of the truth.
I worry that schools see their role today as encouraging activism without proper information or understanding, teaching left wing (which I am) ideals and dogma, encouraging outrage and passion but not actually ever engaging in proper critical thinking. They obsess over kindness but don't really create space or encourage disagreement. Prioritising feelings over the truth.

I agree with stumbled in and others.
Greta is the pawn in a carefully curated movement. From the photo of her lone Friday protests (staged by her parents and other activists) to where she is now. Her parents are hard core climate activists, and have installed such a fear in her that it has amplified her issues - which include autism, selective mutism, an eating disorder, OCD, anxiety, and depression.
I hold them to the same standard as parents who trans young children.
It's shameful, and those posters who are praising this need to look deeper than mainstream media, just like we have to do with trans issues.
I find it deeply disturbing.

So they can afford keep consuming the dwindling resources of a dying o planet. I would be immensely proud of my children if they became activists.

Children have been encouraged enough to be good at school
So they can get good jobs .

I don't think she is too young or too neuro atypical to do what she does. She is clearly being very successful in motivating many people. It's not her job to seek feasible solutions. She just points out the crisis. She says she wants a future. That has some radical implications but it's pretty normal for a teenager to want a future.

4g and 5g that also contributes to species of animals and bees dying out.

I just learnt about this last week and am gutted that this is a factor. People will plant flowers etc but won't be giving up their fast streaming.

Great post stumbled two less actuallys than I managed too

I think the real worry is why the normally reactionary mainstream media have built her up in the way they have. As we all know they build people up to later knock them down.

Yes and how she will deal with this.

I didn't know about the cloud stuff; significant as with GDPR / safeguarding etc it's all going to clouds in education, and I'm sure everywhere else too.

She is clearly an intelligent girl but her life is being rewritten into a modern day fairy tale and I agree with the comments that people are built up to be knocked down.

As to what she is saying, it is a very entrenched position. There is no room for manoeuvre and she is utterly convinced that anyone over the age of idk, 25? 30? is to blame for it. It is causing a huge generation divide that is unhelpful. Time flies and she will be the problematic adult before long and then she won’t be able to have that scapegoat. Also destruction of the planet is really not something that can be laid at the feet of one generation.

It is also true that it’s the internet and use of 4g and 5g that also contributes to species of animals and bees dying out. However, that is never really raised. Yes, she sailed to the US but she is also probably connected to the Internet pretty much constantly as most people are these days, regardless of age. I don’t think her young fans would be prepared to give that up, even if it were to save the planet.

Also, her childhood has not been stolen because of the older generations. The whole eco movement is very white and very ableist.

I'm beginning to be a little uncomfortable. I believe she is autistic. This could either make her more vulnerable or actually more 'focussed on the job' actually. (Really not carrying who she upsets.)

I'm uncomfortable however that she is receiving mockery and hate and potentially that she's beginning to be used by organisations and people. It's not a normal childhood she has now. I worry about her resilience.

I think she’s too young for all of this.

Eco anxiety

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/16/my-daughter-and-i-have-eco-anxiety-will-building-a-bunker-help

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00050qr

I think she is great and would love my children to be activists. Engaged, involved children will do better at school. Who cares if they miss a few days.

I think the real worry is why the normally reactionary mainstream media have built her up in the way they have. As we all know they build people up to later knock them down.

And she herself has said that one of the great things for her on a personal level is from having felt quite isolated now feels she is part of something. If this is dismantled and she finds herself back on her own what will the impact be.

For instance although it is well documented that this is not true the main stream media report that sort of out of nowhere this young girl turned up on her own initiative to do lone vigils on fridays.

Not only is there record of this not being true she has acknowledged its not true. ie there was a campaign to raise issues around climate change linked to work her parents were doing. The pr was to have groups of young people spreading the message but for various reasons this didn't happen. But it was agreed that Greta would do it on her own.

This doesn't under mine the message, but in the hands of the media it isn't ever really about the message it is about her.

Why is this important. Because it allows the media, on behalf of those with a vested interest, to turn the story into her lonely struggle. The ridiculous photo op of sailing across the atlantic which could only happen by flying out a return crew to sail the boat back.

And the worse still is turning the issue into an intergenerational conflict and that she is put forward as a symbol of the sacrificed youth. Whereas young people in white western Europe have not lost their childhood. Young people in developing countries who cant get to schools, have to walk miles to get water, child brides, are the ones who have lost their childhood.

And more than likely young people in white western europe have consumed and produced more damage to the atmosphere than many baby boomers who dont use the internet / computers*, aren't jetting round the world on gap year holidays. The idea that people living in the still devasted communities of pit villages etc., are somehow to blame for the rampant consumer capitalism that cost them their jobs is just insulting.

I dont know who is advising her, but I know many people who have been campaiging and living a life to reduce their carbon foot print, and all she can do is stamp her foot about how horrid old people are.

And I do wonder what safeguarding of her future her parents are doing.

And now we have the phenomenon of competitive parents pushing their little darlings to be oh so daring and go on a demo - no doubt using social media to capture their wonderfulness. I even heard on woman talking about how she and her daughter now bonded over how upset they were about the future and doctors are talking about how they are having to treat young people with anxiety.

Its a bit like the munchausen by proxy of trans parents enabling their children to be the next trans star.

As someone who was educated by Rachel Carson's Silent Spring and the active strand in Women's Liberation that knew back in the 70s about the destruction of the environment of beef farming etc., I am baffled as to why so many people are buying into the its all the baby boomers fault. ie an apoltical analysis that allows global capitalism and personal consumer to not be questioned.

The only fault that baby boomer have is that somehow their children turned into the yuppies and loads of money generation, who over consumed to spite their parents. Now that they are faced with the destruction of their life style they are persuading their children, the grandchildren of babyboomers, to not blame them but to blame the babyboomers.

My real question is why is the western media being so supportive of her? It can only be misdirection. When she falls they can then spin stories about lonely heroines and selfish oldies but never talk about our own consumerism in the west, and let the business and banking interests off the hook.

• For anyone who is not aware computing is a major cause of carbon emmissions. So called cloud computing that allows sharing online etc., is actually rows and rows of stacks of actual hardware that all needs to be run on electricity and also kept cool. ie Microsoft, or it may have been facebook, looked into building a huge storage facility in the ice of the polar regions to save on the cost of cooling. All those diminishing ice regions may be being melted by vast storage areas of computer hardware. When you think of all the information, twitter and facebook tittle tattle, on line news, swapping selfies etc., we can now access, that is all somewhere in a vast warehouse of servers. www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/apr/30/cloud-computing-carbon-emissions

I love her. I think this is her passion and she is a true leader