“Person who gave birth” turns out to be mother.

Orchid whether it’s funded is a totally different point. Arnold said people shouldn’t be permitted to have the procedures and I presumed that included if they paid for them themselves.

OldCrone I am on these boards a lot and if you read my posts you will know full well that I do not think that humans can change sex. I do realise all the implications thank you. Whether or not someone has a GRC it doesn’t alter biology.

The claim that gender dysphoria isn’t a mental illness is probably the biggest delusion of them all.

I agree with Arnold. All those things you've listed aren't funded by the state. Unlike double mastectomies in healthy young women.

the only thing that is in dispute is what Freddy is labelled as on the birth certificate. I appreciate that there is disagreement there but it probably doesn’t make a whole lot of difference to day to day life.

Just being pragmatic for a moment, if Freddy had won then on the legislation as it's drafted at the moment, it would be practical disadvantage in day to day life. That's because the law for fathers is set up around their relationship with the mother. So as an unmarried father Freddy wouldn't be able to register the birth because only the mother has the right to do that. Freddy also wouldn't have parental responsibility because that requires the mother to agree to put the father on the birth certificate or make a formal agreement. If there were no mother then none of this can happen. Of course as Freddy's case was already at court then that could have been sorted out with court orders in this case but what about then next transman who gives birth and can't register the birth because there is no mother. What if a transman gives birth and the doctors want consent to give the baby important treatment but there is doubt because whilst a mother gets parental responsibility automatically at birth an unmarried father doesn't.

Freddy being registered as mother causes no day to day disadvantage and doesn't stop Freddy from being called father in every other situation.

The whole system around recognising parental relationships and responsibility is based on there being a mother. If that's going to change there needs to be a careful analysis of the knock on impact on all the other legislation and not an ad hoc decision that disadvantages children in this way.

In day to day life, what does it matter if Freddy has a certificate at home in a drawer saying ‘male’?

If people are free to choose their sex, then sex-based protections disappear. 'Sex' will effectively be removed from the protected characteristics under the Equality Act. Is that what you want?

It will remove all sex discrimination simply because we will be unable to recognise sex. There will be no 'gender (sex) pay gap' because both men and women will be free to choose which category they are in.

Just think about what a free choice of legal sex actually means before you say 'what does it matter?'

I do wonder if we should expand birth certificates to include a section for genetic mother& father, another for birth mother (with unknown and also redacted until 18 possible options for these two sections). Then another for legal parents, which could include lesbian/gay (non biological) parents etc. It would also provide clarity for children by sperm/egg donation. At the moment many don’t know they aren’t biologically related to their parent/s.
The short certificate would then only show legal parents. This could have parent 1, parent 2, with the rest on the longer one.

Or something along those lines... obviously many factors to consider.

Yes, Pota2, really.

I am opposed to all surgery to 'correct' healthy body parts. Yes, that includes boob jobs, facelifts, etc.

Surgery always comes with significant risk and should never be undertaken unless medically (not mentally) necessary. I should know, I damn near lost my leg/life to a surgical infection following a routine biopsy.

Trans surgeries come with extremely high complication rates, and do not improve the mental health of the cohort at a sufficiently high rate to justify those risks in my view.

The same can be said of many cosmetic procedures and if it were down to me there would be far greater restrictions on such procedures generally.

I’m sure it’s not the path to happiness. Doesn’t mean we can stop adults doing it though. Alcohol isn’t the path to happiness either or extreme overeating or too much Botox or too many boob jobs. However, we accept that adults have to learn from their own mistakes.

I think there is genuine concern that surgery might not be the best pathway for women claiming they have gender disphoria. Removing healthy breasts is extremely drastic, removing an erogenous zone.

Arnold really? So people just should not be able to have surgery that makes them resemble the opposite sex? Freddy has had breast removal surgery. Would you also be against e.g. boob jobs in non-trans women? Or any other form of plastic surgery? There is no justification for denying body modification to an adult (unless you want to ban all of it outright- facelifts, Botox, boob jobs, bum lifts, lipo, the lot).

Well, I think there is agreement that adults can live how they like, have what surgery they like etc.

Is there? It may be the majority position here, or elsewhere, but personally I am opposed to these surgeries in adults as well as children.

*ErrolTheDragon

They could have saved a lot of words if 'sex' and 'gender' had never been allowed to be conflated.

The GRA needs reforming (if not abolishing) to make the difference clear. You can acquire a different gender, you can modify your body but you can't actually change sex.*

100%

I don't blame Freddie at all for wanting both, and as a society I think we should support and recognise that he deserves both.

He can do whatever he wants, I don’t believe anybody has stopped him from doing so. However, should you wish legal recognition as a person of the opposite gender you must commit to living as that gender. He lied to get his GRC. His approach smacks of ‘cakism’.

scarlett are you able to explain why anorexia is classed as a mental health illness and patients are not alluded to in their belief
they are too fat, yet if someone feels they are born in the wrong body Drs agree with them and promote surgeries and cross sex hormones?
I can’t understand why we don’t then just help anorexics live looking like skeletons as they so desire. Of course we don’t, as a caring society we help them get better & healthy again.

OldCrone but if they are adults, they can choose to do those things. You can choose to think they haven’t changed sex and I agree with you because I don’t think it’s biologically possible. In day to day life, what does it matter if Freddy has a certificate at home in a drawer saying ‘male’? And surely nobody is saying that he shouldn’t be allowed to have a child? So the only issue is how he is described on the birth certificate which isn’t really about his everyday life or his relationship with his child.

Your twisting people's words Scarlett. Like I said the world does not revolve around Freddy. They chose to give birth to a child. This is only possible for a biological female to do regardless of how they identify.

Putting Freddy down as the father would be a lie, they are the child's mother.

Just because biological reality doesn't suit one person doesn't mean everything has to altered in favour of that one person at the detriment of everyone else.

The dislike being made to lie to accommodate someone's feelings. I'm not duty bound to validate anyone.

So the only thing that is in dispute is what Freddy is labelled as on the birth certificate.

That's what this thread (and the court ruling) is about.

Well, I think there is agreement that adults can live how they like, have what surgery they like etc. So Freddy is free to do that and to present as male (because in social situations he will be read as male).
And there is agreement that people who want children and can have them should be free to have them.
So the only thing that is in dispute is what Freddy is labelled as on the birth certificate. I appreciate that there is disagreement there but it probably doesn’t make a whole lot of difference to day to day life.

it is comparable because historically both gay people and trans people have been faced with a choice in life - either be your true self and be happy or pretend to be someone you're not in order to be 'normal'.

Gay people - being your true self means having a same sex partner.
Trans people - being your true self means denying biological reality, taking opposite sex hormones and having unnecessary surgery which might destroy your health, removing sexual function and reproductive capability, insisting to the rest of the world that you're a man when you're clearly a woman (or vice versa)...
Trans people - 'pretending to be someone you're not' means what?

being transgender is not a mental illness.
What is it then? How else do you describe a delusional belief that you have been 'born in the wrong body'? People who believe themselves to be the opposite sex need psychiatric support, which is precisely what they're not able to get while other people insist that their delusions are reality.

Pota2 I think adults should be allowed to live as they choose and modify their bodies if they want to. We should not be colluding in their delusion that this means they have changed sex. Believing yourself to actually be the opposite sex is a delusion, because nobody is born in the wrong body.

The law should never have allowed people to legally 'change sex'. The GRA needs to be repealed.

People should be content to call themselves transmen and transwomen if they dislike the societal expectations placed on them because of their sex, but I should be free to believe that this is unnecessary and society should become more accommodating of gender non-conformity.

Please stop comparing this to previous societal beliefs about homosexuality. It is not in any way comparable. Some people are attracted to people of the same sex. This is an observable fact.

happydappy2 being transgender is not a mental illness.

And being transgender does not take away the urge to have one's own biological child.

There’s no evidence that Freddy is not a good parent and if there is concern by those around him, I am sure that this will be dealt with via the usual routes as with any parent and child.

OldCrone it is comparable because historically both gay people and trans people have been faced with a choice in life - either be your true self and be happy or pretend to be someone you're not in order to be 'normal'.

Gay relationships are accepted as normal now - and my wife is legally my daughter's parent. We haven't been forced to choose whether to be our authentic selves or be parents - we're allowed to be both.

Freddie should be allowed to do the same.