How should we treat trans people?

The problem is Field, as we all know, that in certain situations we do need to be defined. We rarely need to be defined by what illnesses we have suffered but we do regularly need to be defined by sex.

Obviously we’re all the sum of our life experiences. But just because you have had depression, or heart disease or herpes or ‘condition x’ doesn’t mean it has to define your entire being or that you have to talk about it in every situation, whether it’s obvious to others or not

But then you don't try to eradicate all mention of it, either.

There is a contradiction, though, in suggesting that one's whole being is defined by feeling that you are the opposite sex, to the extent that you must take hormones, or have surgery on your healthy, normal body to affirm this; but then suggesting that it is not that defining of one's entire being.

Transsexualism is not quite the same prospect as modern trangenderism.

Yes I see that.

You can’t control how people perceive you. Trying to control that and tying your self esteem to that is simply a severe MH issue in the making.

Even taking gender out of the equation, I’m sure some of us would like to be seen as posher/less posh/thinner/taller/stronger/more physically attractive/less physically attractive.

Part of growing up is making your peace with your own body and limitations and realising there isn’t some mysterious privileged “other” group that possesses happiness because they have the physical attributes you yourself covet like a drug.

And realising there’s more to life than obsessing over your physical attributes and keeping good health is the main goal.

My social experience has been that it’s like compulsive behaviour or an addiction with the AGP side of trans - constantly needing the narcissistic “high” of dressing up and being perceived a particular way or being validated or being “checked out”.

So their born sex doesn't define them. Their transition doesn't define them. .....

Obviously we’re all the sum of our life experiences. But just because you have had depression, or heart disease or herpes or ‘condition x’ doesn’t mean it has to define your entire being or that you have to talk about it in every situation, whether it’s obvious to others or not.

We have no control over how others perceive us. Making this a core part of our identity is bound to end in disappointment

Indeed! Which is why we now have so many de-transitioners - who were once convinced they had been born in the wrong body. Also those older transsexuals who have come to terms with the fact that they are actually men who have a particular psychological 'condition' which makes them want to appear as women.

Why are transwomen and transmen so ashamed to be trans?
They aren't going to gain acceptance and recognition by society if they are constantly hiding behind identities (most don't pass anyway) and erasing details from their past.

Gays and lesbians didn't gain rights and acceptance by trying to erase themselves and pass as straight. They made an effort to highlight that they are distinct from heterosexuals but no less worthy of having the same rights to jobs, housing, and other legal protections.

The trans movement isn't going to gain respect and acceptance by aggressively demanding it whilst at the same time saying they are so fragile that they fall apart if the entire world doesn't behave as they wish.

The trans movement needs to start taking pride in being trans. Self-esteem and self-respect goes a long way. They need to say we are not men or women, but transwomen and transmen. We should not be discriminated against when applying for jobs or access to housing or other legal protections. We have a right to live peacefully without being harassed or targeted by violent individuals. We might need access to specialised healthcare - some of this will be due to our natal sex and other issues might be due to transition, therefore we need funding for separate healthcare and research, mental health services, counselling. Also access to third spaces that are separate from single sex ones. And so on.

I'm sure the vast majority of people would support such endeavours. The trans movement is only making things harder for themselves by focusing on gaining privileges instead of rights and it will ultimately hurt trans people because public sympathy will dwindle.

I'm open to there being an extension of legal categories if it would help define the law more accurately - man, woman, transwoman, transman.
A gender recognition certificate should enable a person to gain entry into the protected legal category of transwoman or transman. And there should be a sensible process and framework to ensure individuals are not transitioning due to unresolved trauma or mental health problems. Extreme safeguarding and care for children who are dealing with dysphoria - watchful waiting etc. Transitioning is only available to adults with a way to handle those who might choose to detransition in future and go back to the legal categories of woman / man.

It isn’t just about stereotypical behaviour. Some people want (need) to be perceived as the opposite physical sex to which they were born.
Some achieve it better than others and they have to make their peace with that one way or another

Many, even most, of us would like to identify out of gendered expectations and roles.

What you are suggesting seems to be driven by an internal struggle with the social definitions and prescriptions of gender. The solution is to widen the 'bandwidth' of what it means to be male or female. This is what liberation movements have been attempting for the last 50 years. There is nothing unique or special in the struggles that supposed 'trans' people face - just their perceived solutions to internal conflict and dissonance.

Although they’ll always be someone who went through it of course, it shouldn’t have to define them

But the whole gender ideology hinges on 'identities', definitions and labels.

Transsexualism is not quite the same prospect as modern trangenderism.

We have no control over how others perceive us. Making this a core part of our identity is bound to end in disappointment.

And attempting to force others to change what they see and hear when they look at someone, or to lie about what they perceive, is a. doomed to failure and b. an unacceptable imposition on their space, freedom, and rights. This is something that doesn't get said often enough - trying to force people to deny the evidence of their own senses is wrong. It's gaslighting on a cultural scale.

Some people want to be perceived as the opposite sex

And some people want their sex to be completely irrelevant to how people treat them

but it's not. People are discriminated against because of their sex.

Hence sex based protections and rights

If I could be perceived as the opposite sex that would be a suitable alternative to my sex being irrellevent because then I would have avoided rape. I would have avoided harresment, I would be a manager not a monkey.

But without severe medical intervention that's not realistic for me.

I feel that the trans community is giving me a choice of medical mutilisation or acceptance of rape and other discrimination

Some people want (need) to be perceived as the opposite physical sex to which they were born.

We have no control over how others perceive us. Making this a core part of our identity is bound to end in disappointment.

I'm really bothered that you seem stuck on gendered stereotypes of behaviour and 'treatment'. Can you not see what you are saying?

It isn’t just about stereotypical behaviour. Some people want (need) to be perceived as the opposite physical sex to which they were born.

Some achieve it better than others and they have to make their peace with that one way or another.

You can't 'acquire' a sex.

So their born sex doesn't define them. Their transition doesn't define them. But their inner sense of gender defines them, even though it would go against how the majority of people they come across would define them visually and how biology defines them?

I don't understand why people who are trans are so ashamed of being trans (if they were proud they wouldn't need to try and erase their past and try to enforce pronouns etc

Some get treatment and move on with their lives in their acquired sex. They simply see themselves as a man or a woman. Like any medical condition you get the treatment and hopefully move forward, you don’t keep identifying as that condition. Although they’ll always be someone who went through it of course, it shouldn’t have to define them.

But you're ignoring the fact that it's not just about danger

What else is it about then, in your view?

But why do you support TM with whatever solutions they want but not tw?

Because females tend to register physical or sexual threat from males - not so much from females. There is evidence, growing by the day, that many men presenting as women still behave and respond in masculine' ways. Voyeurism, sexual fetish, violence, threat.

The problem is that in public spaces we are confronted with strangers. At home we share intimate spaces with people of the opposite sex and not, necessarily, feel threatened ( although the sexed 'dissonance' still never departs).

Women require single sex 'public' spaces for all of the reasons that even you yourself must be more than familiar with. For the same reason that women all around the world need or seek single sex spaces.

I don't want a fetishistic AGP trans woman in an 'intimate' female public space with me; a changing room, a women's shelter.....and it is not fair nor right that males should compete in women's sports or use women only short lists etc.

I mean in every sense.Many posters on this board talk about having different reactions to men than women, how they behave differently when talking to a man than a woman, presence of a man changing the dynamic of a group etc etc

Yes, I know and understand this.

It would seem that trans people are wanting to buy in to 'gender' rules and roles; most likely ( for men) focusing on themselves as being 'more emotionally expressive', wearing colourful clothing or 'sexy' clothing, being empathic etc......and yet so much of the behaviour we see from radical TRAS is distinctly 'unfeminine'. There's not much acquiescence or submission going on; rather a centring of themselves and a demand that everyone focus on them and their needs. This is not the gendered feminine role at all.

But beyond this, it is impossible to change your sex, and incredibly difficult to undo socialisation related to this. People will still register your sex, even if at first it takes them a while to unpack what is going on - re, the visual clues of gendered presentation. You can't change other people's instinctive responses.

There are many different ways to be a woman nowadays. Including taking testosterone, chopping your tits off and growing a beard.
The end.

The female born trans people do need specific women's rights, because they may need access to abortion services etc.

I don't follow this.

What is so tricky to grasp exactly?

feeling nauseous if I looked at a good-looking man

Not because I think unattractive men can't rape, but because "he's cute" followed by "there's a one-third chance that he doesn't respect 'stop'" leads to nausea:.fear and desire combining into disgust at men for being violent and disgust at myself for desiring them (as if desire is a choice). If it was possible to choose sexual orientation, I'd have turned lesbian already.

But hey, just keep bullshitting that women can switch off and on our trauma responses and other conditioned reactions when someone of one sex utters the magic words "I identity as...".

By debating whether they are women or not is essentially asking are they valid as women. It’s debating their existence because if they say they really are women and you say they are not, you’re basically saying that what they say they are, doesn’t actually exist.

I can help you with the debating bit. Transwomen are not women; trans men are not men.

I’d also argue that if you perceive your entire existence hinges on the validation of a chosen identity by outsiders, then you certainly have a mental illness. The capacity for self-validation and a coherent sense of self driven by self-awareness is an important component of being an adult human.

It is one of the great tragedies of being a woman that our socialisation into femininity teaches us to seek constant external validation. It is neither healthy nor useful to us, particularly as we age. Men aping the worst and most damaging aspects of female socialisation is not an indicator of mental well-being.

I believe transwomen, (and men exist). What I don’t believe is the explanation of their chosen “identity”.

Do I believe there are men who desire to present as womem, or women who wish to present as men? Of course. You can’t turn around lately without falling over the adherents of that narrative.

Do I believe they are literally of the other sex, physically or mentally? No. Never.

Does that make them stop existing? Certainly not. Even in the ontological fog which seems to permeate the trans narrative, material reality is still in operation.

I have no interest in marginalising transpeople, denying them any of the rights and benefits which accrue to humans in society. I want them to access the kind of physical and mental healthcare which will prevent or cure the surgical and drug-induced mutilation of their normal, healthy bodies.

I do not believe that while I wrote this, a single transperson winked out of existence.

@StopThePlanet
Your posts have been both uncomfortable reading and inspiring, thank you for them.
@coffeeplease16
My answer to your question 'How should we treat Transpeople? With the dignity and respect that any other person should have. For me there will always be the overriding factor that human beings cannot change sex. For clarity. I'll never believe that lie.
I'd also add that there is only one way to be a woman, and that is to be born a woman. Not worn as fucking woman face, if a man decides to "become" a woman then he should be treated with extreme suspicion and given a very wide berth.
I'd rather be rude than tell a lie.
A man can never be a woman, a Lesbian can never have a penis, I am Aber from Aberonddu, I will never submit

My answer is "it depends".

We can't make policy based on your personal "it depends" rules.