How should we treat trans people?

Some people want (need) to be perceived as the opposite physical sex to which they were born.

It's a psychological want that has become entrenched to the point that the self interprets it as an immediate survival need.

I think it is important here to distinguish between needs and wants. This is a want, not a need, but that doesn't gain enough sympathy and support, because we all have wants which are not fulfilled. What is happening here is that people are being encouraged to think that some 'wants' should be elevated to the category of 'needs' and the rest of the world should help them achieve what they 'need'.

Probably treated rather than cured 3mks

It's a psychological want that has become entrenched to the point that the self interprets it as an immediate survival need.

It’s a theory. I didn’t not know what the mental health care profession community would make of it or whether it could be used as a basis for new successful treatments but yes it’s a reasonable sounding hypothesis.

Could it be that we're scared of what the male might do if his psychological needs are not pandered to?

Maybe sometimes, yes.

You can't really judge anything from tv show contestants. There was one where the women contestants believed they would get a date with Prince Harry (I Wanna Marry Harry anyone?). It was a fake Harry...

"Some get treatment and move on with their lives in their acquired sex. They simply see themselves as a man or a woman. Like any medical condition you get the treatment and hopefully move forward, you don’t keep identifying as that condition. Although they’ll always be someone who went through it of course, it shouldn’t have to define them."

You can't acquire a sex it is fixed and despite them viewing themselves as the opposite sex other may not and this seems to be a problem for them. The fact that after medical treatment they still feel their are the opposite sex suggests that they are still suffering from the same medical problem. Their medical conditions is not cured and so they still suffer from it.

Nonny yes I agree with a lot of what you say. We can see quite a range of different trans types and behaviours, some more pathological than others.

When I was younger I used to have dreams about vampires when I was around men who were dodgy. Took me a while to figure out what my subconscious was trying to tell me and that it wasn't "change your late night reading habits". When I did figure it out and cut contact with those men, the dreams stopped. I bet the IBS would too if the cause of the discomfort was removed.

As for this:

Some people want (need) to be perceived as the opposite physical sex to which they were born.

It's a psychological want that has become entrenched to the point that the self interprets it as an immediate survival need.

I have a psychological need to be perceived as solvent by the ATM. Doesn't mean everyone else has to make it happen, no matter how distressed I am by lack of cash.

I also have a psychological need to know that women and girls are safe. Because I am female, it's a psychological need for me.

So, why does the male's psychological need take precedence over the female's psychological need?

Could it be that we're scared of what the male might do if his psychological needs are not pandered to?

Yet again no one can explain why someone else's inner essence trumps my identity, every time.
The rights of one group override the rights of another, thats how you tell this is not about human rights.

Does it matter if you can tell (you pretty much always can)?

Men shouldn’t be trying to annexe women’s spaces and services, full stop, the end

‘Passing’ is irrelevant

Doyoumind I don’t disagree, you can see hundreds on twitter who don’t pass at all and some irl.
Great you can tell. Your experience is your experience.

Radical meninism = "I was born with this innate feature that is not my fault"

Radical feminism = "I was conditioned into this pattern of thinking and I'm bloody pissed off about it"

Feeling begins in the gut. bd's IBS flare-ups caught my eye. Her body is showing the strain of what she knows is true being at odds with what men are telling her is true. If it weren't IBS it'd be coming out somewhere else - and the meninists would tell her she was born with that fault and try to make her believe that was the source of all her problems.

Solution: single-sex spaces in which to heal. Lack of single-sex options = giving males a psychological boost and not giving a shit that the direct consequence is physical illness in females.

I think some people may just be unusually bad at spotting sex and assume that their normal is the same as everyone else's.

Unless of course, and again I point it out to you, you are suggesting that we should institute a theocracy in which the religious belief in a gendered soul should take precedence over everyone else's individual spaces, set asides, civil rights and free speech?

No I don’t think think that.

Well, I know I've seen trans people IRL who don't pass for a second. If Twitter etc are anything to go by, with those who don't have an anime character, I can spot in a second they are trans despite the picture being tiny and it likely being the most posed and passing picture they have.

Angel I think many do pass a lot of the time. That’s fine we can disagree, I’m not obsessed.

There was a TV show called “there’s something about Miriam” with a small, slightly built, cosmetically enhanced, TW in a dating game whose trans status wasn’t revealed. The men guessed

They didn’t. They found out when she revealed she had a penis and then they tried to sue the tv company.

www.theguardian.com/media/2003/oct/30/bskyb.broadcasting

It isn’t just about stereotypical behaviour. Some people want (need) to be perceived as the opposite physical sex to which they were born.

And this entitles them to what, exactly? Infringement of the rights of a rightfully protected group? That's toddler levels of bullcrap.

Women have rights and needs. And these do not involve being colonised by males who have an (often sexual) urge to mimic them.

Unless of course, and again I point it out to you, you are suggesting that we should institute a theocracy in which the religious belief in a gendered soul should take precedence over everyone else's individual spaces, set asides, civil rights and free speech?

There was a transwoman where I worked and they were the only person in the whole building who wore a skirt and heels. They just looked like a bloke in a skirt. Wore masses of make up to try to cover up the five o'clock shadow. They didn't pass. No need to 'disclose' their trans-ness, it was clear to all.

Angel has it. In the vast majority of cases the disclosure issue is a red herring, because everyone interacting with the person already knows. The only cases in which disclosure might be relevant is when someone who's not made any efforts to transition, whatever that means these days, yet and so looks like a 100% gender conforming member of their sex but is telling someone that they're trans.

The other person will then assume that this means that they intend to make changes to their appearance and pursue various medical paths, which at this point may not actually be true, unless the change is purely in clothing, and sometimes not even that.

I think sex is more fundamental than those relatively superficial things.

Fieldofgreycorn What do you think would change about your life if you were the opposite sex? Obviously you can't change sex, but if you changed your appearance using hormones and surgery, like some trans people do, to superficially resemble the opposite sex, what would be different about your life?

People who fixate on being the 'wrong' sex must have some feeling that their life would be fundamentally different if they 'became' the opposite sex, but I've never managed to work out in what way. And they never seem to be able to explain.

It usually does just come down to superficial aspects of their appearance, and how they want to be perceived (which as we've already discussed, can't be controlled by anyone).

So, I can understand in some way why people don't want to have to declare that they are trans.

Sure, people don't want to discuss such issues on a daily basis, especially if it's irrelevant. Context is important. But if you want society to recognise and understand your problems and plight, then you need a decent number of individuals to be willing to stand up and declare it and have it formally labelled in some way.

People with ME, autism etc organise days where they come out to promote public awareness of the issues they face. They won't tell random people about their disabilities in their daily life, and in many cases it is hidden, but they might inform their employers, for example. Job applications ask if you have a disability and if you meet the job criteria, they are required by law to invite you for an interview. The same can be done for those who tick the 'trans' box on application forms. GDPR rules can be used to keep personal details private and secure.

I don't like telling people I am autistic, and most of the time I don't. I'm not self absorbed enough to keep talking about it the way some folk go on about their gender identities. I do mention it if it's relevant though and, crucially, I'm not ashamed to be autistic. Some folk might make ignorant comments and hold prejudiced views about autism, but that's on them, not me.
As long as I'm not being discriminated against or harassed, people can think absurd or negative things about autism. My existence isn't denied simple because someone might think I'm 'not autistic enough'.

fields

I think you’re making a straw man argument and obsessing over getting in your subtle claims that transpeople actually look like the sex they aspire to present as.

Are you trying to convince us or yourself?

Most transpeople look like transpeople. They certainly aren’t “expected to reveal” they are trans because others see they are trans.

There’s nothing wrong with that. In the fringes of my social circle there is a a winner of a trans beauty competition (TW) who has a trans partner (TM).

They both look fine and clearly have (and do) put a lot of effort and money into their appearances.

but the transwoman looks like a fundamental man with massive hands and the transman looks like a woman with a beard.

No one has pulled their pants down or demanded the info or located deadnames (or cares) they just aren’t women and men despite their presentation.

It doesn’t mean they should be jeered and sneered at but neither of them passes remotely.

There was a TV show called “there’s something about Miriam” with a small, slightly built, cosmetically enhanced, TW in a dating game whose trans status wasn’t revealed. The men guessed (Incidentally I think that the format was horrible and tacky and exploited a TW with mental health issues).

If you’re being sold the lie that you can easily turn yourself into a glamorous woman who “passes” if you spend £50000 on surgery then you need to take it up with the cranks promoting this ideology, not women.

Hell, I’m sure there’s lots of biological women who wouldn’t mind if there existed a surgeon who could turn them into Meghan Markle or Kate Middleton for £50000! But we know that fundamentally it’s a con.

You can’t control how people perceive you.
You can take steps, sometimes quite extreme, to alter aspects of physical sex that can change how most people perceive you.

Trying to control that and tying your self esteem to that is simply a severe MH issue in the making.

It might be better than living with extreme gender dysphoria.

Even taking gender out of the equation, I’m sure some of us would like to be seen as posher/less posh/thinner/taller/stronger/more physically attractive/less physically attractive.

I think sex is more fundamental than those relatively superficial things.

Part of growing up is making your peace with your own body and limitations and realising there isn’t some mysterious privileged “other” group that possesses happiness because they have the physical attributes you yourself covet like a drug.

And realising there’s more to life than obsessing over your physical attributes and keeping good health is the main goal.

My social experience has been that it’s like compulsive behaviour or an addiction with the AGP side of trans - constantly needing the narcissistic “high” of dressing up and being perceived a particular way or being validated or being “checked out”.

I don’t disagree with most of what you say. Good advice for anyone.

The trans movement needs to start taking pride in being trans. Self-esteem and self-respect goes a long way. They need to say we are not men or women, but transwomen and transmen.

I can understand why people may not 2ant to be broadcasting very personal information about themselves.

I have an, at times, hidden disability. I absolutely hate being in a position where I have to tell people or explain my illness to strangers. I'm sick to death of customers where I work asking me what's wrong with me. So, I can understand in some way why people don't want to have to declare that they are trans.