How should we treat trans people?

Is there some other sort of feminist who has no male family members, and who doesn't work with any men

Wouldn’t that be impossible

Is there some other sort of feminist who has no male family members, and who doesn't work with any men? Does she live in Themiscyra?

You can’t build trans rights by lying about basic biological facts and taking away women’s rights, even as an ‘unfortunate double effect’ or whatever that comical wording was.
You may be able to get away with it for a bit, until people catch on, but it’s just not sustainable.
The Middle Ages are over, and women have come to expect privacy, dignity, safety, and the right to say no to unwanted penis.

What is the ideal - how can we protect the rights of women without ostracising trans people from our society?

And what do you think OP?

It would be nice to know what you think

(It might not be nice...obviously)

I am a feminist and fight the patriarchy, but have men as colleagues, friends and family.

Why is there a “but” in that sentence?

as a group surely refers to the multiple threatening, violent behaviours of trans activists. I haven't seen on the news the 'other side' making death threats, assaulting people trying to exercise free speech, intimidating, following them home bla bla, check out beautifully-collated list on the other thread here. The 'unfortunate' double effect you cite somewhat understates the risk to women; the campaigners' disregard for the privacy, safety and dignity of women, exercised with such aggressive repression of challenge, is further assault on women and free speech. So as a 'group', they are increasingly seen as intolerant (ironic huh?) and trampling with pleasure on other human rights.

Oh noes, our campaign just happened to result in a massive violation of women's boundaries, which women told us was happening and was a problem for them, but hey, what can we do, it's not as if we could possibly take their needs into account too?

Quite. Massive boundary violation from unnecessary action

Oh noes, our campaign just happened to result in a massive violation of women's boundaries, which women told us was happening and was a problem for them, but hey, what can we do, it's not as if we could possibly take their needs into account too? Just call those women hysterical harpies who're trying to genocide us and carry on as you were!

I work with a trans man. I treat him with courtesy and politeness and use his preferred pronouns, but I do challenge any sexist comments (sadly he has adopted a toxic male worldview). I believe he is a victim of poor advice and (from what he has told me) a shockingly abusive childhood.

I can understand that policy changes leave women more at risk of violence, but this is not what trans people are campaigning for?

the normal reaction of decent human beings upon finding that their actions are directly harming others is to stop.

just a thought

I can understand that policy changes leave women more at risk of violence,

How about no policy changes and no increased risk to women?

I am working with a group of Trans people at the moment and having a great time.

I am a feminist and fight the patriarchy, but have men as colleagues, friends and family.
We all have friends who are of a different sexuality who may fancy is but we will never reciprocate and / or vice versa.

I am gender critical but not anti anyone living their life Trans -gender. That’s up to them. I defend their right to be Trans without being harassed , they respect that my identity is with my sex. We, you know, behave normally and not like dicks.

Well yes. I presume that men's provision isn't like the rowing deck on a slave galley ship, so I'm sure that trans people with male bodies will be treated perfectly well.

this is not what trans people are campaigning for? More an unfortunate double effect?

Would you also use this turn of phrase other choices throught history which have lead to a group losing rights?

Obviously Transwomen should be treated with as much respect as any other men and in men’s hospital wards, prisons, dormitories just like other men. Why not?

Exactly.

this is not what trans people are campaigning for? More an unfortunate double effect?

If that is the effect, which you admit, then it is what's being campaigned for.

Obviously Transwomen should be treated with as much respect as any other men and in men’s hospital wards, prisons, dormitories just like other men. Why not?

As for ‘gender neutral toilets’: they are and always have been gender neutral but separated on the basis of sex. That should remain as Biology is the only logical basis for separation. It doesn’t matter which of the various 100 genders a man identifies as he should still use the ‘men’s’ toilets as he is still part of the group with male biology and a male propensity for violence.

Maybe the men folks could come up with the answer to this (without giving away women’s rights)?

Women losing their rights and being at risk of violence is an 'unfortunate double effect'? That's what you're going with?

You treat others as you would wish to be treated, obviously.

Campaigns should focus on wider issues, not on individuals.

let's look at this the other way around coffeeplease16

men are not welcome in women's single sex spaces (toilets, hospital wards, changing rooms and so on). Their presence compromises women's privacy, dignity and safety. If certain men feel uncomfortable in men's toilets, changing rooms etc, that is their problem to solve

so, showing due respect to the privacy, dignity and safety of women, what would be your solution to what facilities these men should use?

I also think what SquishySquirmy said.

Toilets are public plumbing provided for people's private plumbing. They are differentiated according to your plumbing arrangements.

People with willies should go where there are urinals.

And seriously, what is this 'how do we include trans people in society'? The same way we include everyone. Why would a male need to access female spaces just because he really felt he was a female, sincerely and truly, to be included in society?