How should we treat trans people?

Why do I get the feeling I'm going to be repeating this point to new posters over and over?

I can understand that policy changes leave women more at risk of violence, but this is not what trans people are campaigning for? More an unfortunate double effect?

They're campaigning to let one of my rapists have free access to all the public toilets and changing rooms I might happen to use.

And you call it an unfortunate double effect. I presume you mean side effect, OP. Thanks for making it clear that you think my rights and sanity and human right to participate in public life are worth nothing compared to the poor tortured souls who end up raping people because they're just so fucking feminine.

Get some empathy, mate. Or would you rather everyone who's been traumatised by male sexual violence just shut themselves away in the attic forever?

As for how we treat other trans people... I'd suggest we treat them as human beings with some psychological difficulties. The ones who never had a penis are welcome to share my spaces.

If 'trans' is to be celebrated in any way, it should be that XY transpeople are celebrated for widening the bandwidth of what it means to be a man, and treated by other men with the same respect each would want for himself.

Very very gently as we don't want to upset them in case they lose it and smash us in the face?

Is that the screenshot you are looking for?

What sort of bollocks thread is this? Treat people as people, and segregate by sex, until the real and current danger of male [xy] on female [xx] violence isn't a threat any more.

I do find it interesting that women are happy that transmen share female spaces, becuase I have also seen IRL that men are not happy that transwomen share male spaces. Surely the question should therefor be addressed at a Male dominated group?

Tsunamis will always happen, so there's no point building sea walls.

But, you know, if a tsunami was a sentient being who was consciously choosing to hurt other people.

With the amount of clout & money transactivist organisations like Stonewall have, they could easily be campaigning for anyone who identifies as trans to be safe & respected in their own spaces. Whether that’s among their own sex or a third space.

But instead Ruth Hunt blithely announces that ‘men will always rape women’ so there’s clearly no point in us trying to keep them out of our toilets, changing rooms, prisons or rape shelters.

Note that Lang is a person who can speak very clearly indeed, but who is being forced into linguistic contortions that make it harder to understand what she's trying to communicate. Consider who this benefits.

It isn't women. It isn't even most men, and it certainly isn't children.

Best result, an additional, mixed sex space for everyone and anyone, while keeping women's only for women only.

Mind you they had that at Hampstead ponds before, but now all they have are three for men only/mixed and none for women.

Result for patriarchy/misogyny! Thanks again, harmless trans people.

I would treat an XY trans person in the same way I would treat any other XY person. XY trans people should have the same rights as any other XY people.

I would treat an XX trans person in the same way I would treat any other XX person. XX trans people should have the same rights as any other XX people.

HTH.

(And this is the sort of silly post you get when apparently "civilised discussion" is a synonym for "mandatory denial of material reality".)

^ by encouraging trans people to be proud of their persona.

Basically it's up to men how to deal with their spaces, but for women what's best is women and transmen in women's spaces.

I've decided I'm kind of done being civil, though. Third spaces. End of. The poor oppressed trans people are currently intimidating women meeting to talk about their own rights by banging and kicking the windows of the venue while the police force charged with keeping the peace just shrug. Maybe the coppers think it's all just an unfortunate double effect. Jaysus.

Rights vs feelings.
Why are the rights of women being placed on a par with trans people not feeling ostracised?
Go and ask a trans board how they are going to protect the rights of women. How are they going to ensure women’s rights are upheld?

If you yourself believe that you can’t change sex, and being a women = having a vagina - how do you think we should include trans people in our society?
Trans people include transmen who have a vagina too. Transmen are welcome to use women's spaces as much as other women "and people with vaginas"
The stigma of "being outed" needs to stop.
People need to be proud to be trans.
Trans people need to stop hiding behind a false identity.

How can we protect the rights of women without ostracising trans people from our society?

To answer the OPs original question - the ideal is probably third spaces. Which isn't what many trans activists are asking for, but is what's best for society as a whole.

Oh noes, our campaign just happened to result in a massive violation of women's boundaries, which women told us was happening and was a problem for them, but hey, what can we do, it's not as if we could possibly take their needs into account too? Just call those women hysterical harpies who're trying to genocide us and carry on as you were!

Very much so. But more realistically,

Oh noes, our campaign just happened to result in a massive violation of women's boundaries, which women told us was happening and was a problem for them, but hey, what can we do, it's not as if we could possibly take their needs into account too? Just call those women TERFS who deserve to be raped to death, killed in a grease fire, and carry on!

Because this is actually what is happening right now, to actual women. Massive, industrial scale abuse of women.

Thank you "harmless trans people".

Why are you asking women to sort out a men's problem? It's men who kill and attack trans people. Go on a mans board and tell them to sort their shit out.

Like you would any other human being.

But stop eroding sex based rights.

It is that simple.

There is no big thing here. No "how to treat" them.

I can understand that policy changes leave women more at risk of violence, but this is not what trans people are campaigning for?

Eh?

It's the only thing they're campaigning for.

Giving men, any man, access to all women's changing rooms, toilets, prisons, mental health wards, rape refugees, homeless shelters, shortlists, awards, sports and lesbians.

Give me one, single, solitary transactivist who is campaigning for anything else.

What a brilliant and respectful thread, with points clearly set out. I'm sure it's just what the OP hoped for.

Sorry, meant to finish the thought -women's rights are not just of lesser importance, they actually part of the goal, albeit a secondary effect.

Double effect is a phrase used by Catholic ethicists when discussing things like euthanasia occurring because of using pain relief to lethal effect. Double effect is a phrase that indicates it's an accepted consequence, but the other goal of pain relief outweighs the hastening of death. A 'side effect' would be better understood by most as an unintended corollary.

So double effect is an interesting phrase for coffeeplease to use, because it indicates that the loss of women's rights and safety is of lesser importance than the end goal of trans privileges.

But ShesDressedInBlackAgain it might be better to change the units in which speed is measured so my 60 becomes your 20.
If you did this before there were any meetings held for 'local objectors' this would probably help your cause.

How should we treat trans people?

Exactly the same way we treat everyone else.

Like everyone else they can use the appropriate facilities for their sex as determined at conception and observed at birth.

Like everyone else they can enter into heterosexual relationships with members of the opposite sex or homosexual ones with members of their own sex providing they are consensual and involve no deception.

Like everyone else they can hold whatever unsubstantiated beliefs, such as a belief in disembodied gendered souls, and accept that no one else is required to share their unsubstantiated belief.

Like everyone else they can express their beliefs, eg through use of wrong sex pronouns, and accept that others are not required to play along.

Like everyone else they can dress how they like within the bounds of law and company policy if they are employed by another party.

Like everyone else if they struggle with their mental health they should be entitled to appropriate therapy.

No treating them worse than others, no giving them special privileges.

Parthenogenesis? I mean, I didn't think humans could do that.

Seriously, all feminists have men in their lives in one way or another. This is not some sort of special and amazing thing that sets one apart from those other terrifying harridans.

I'd like to raise the speed limit on my local road to 60. It is currently 20 and that stops people getting to where they are going quickly and causes congestion. So 60 it is then.

I know there might be RTA deaths but that is not what I am campaigning for- more an unfortunate side effect (you meant side effect not 'double effect' right?) - so I can't be blamed for that.