How should we treat trans people?

Coffee you do realise that transwomen have the same sex crime statistics as other men? You're happy with that? Well many of us vehemently are not.

Men who say they identify as women are not an issue for women to have to solve: they are an issue for their fellow men to come to terms with.

Women's spaces must remain women's spaces, for women's safety, dignity and privacy.

Oh if it's alright for you Coffee then that's all that matters?

[btw my analogy was just trying to be an analogy for dignity and privacy, not an analogy in terms of genetics. I understand chromosomes, sexes etc. sorry if it failed.]

Here's Helen Belcher on Newsnight telling us that expecting transwomen to use third spaces is like segregation.

Belcher is asked if Belcher would want to use separate 'trans' spaces. Answer: "No, my identity is as a woman".

Start at about 18:30 to hear this.

Trans men are female and welcome in women's spaces.

Oh Coffee, please! Yes, we feel strongly about this issue. Why is that a problem for you? Why might we feel strongly I wonder? Well, there's the medication given to children which doesn't seem to have been tested properly and causes lifelong effects...that makes us vehemently upset and produces vehemently protective feelings in us mothers (mums tend to care about all children, not only their own), then there's the dilapidation of womens' sports, that makes us vehemently upset too, as it is so incredibly unfair! I could go on but these are examples of the context in which we respond so vehemently to the idea of welcoming a certain subsection of men into our female spaces.

Why does 'trans' always equal 'transwomen' and 'society' always equals 'womens' rooms where disrobing, voiding, stemming menstrual flow, lactation and/or sleeping are likely to occur?

What is the intention of trans people, coffee? The problem is that there are many individuals under that umbrella but the ones vocally lobbying for change are not interested in protecting sex based rights for women at all.

A lot of people on these boards started from a position of trying to be nice and accommodating and then realised the potential harm that could be caused by people who are less accommodating and well-intentioned.

Transwomen generally don't want third spaces. They want validation, which means using women's spaces.

Because they consider third spaces emotionally invalidating, basically. Assigning them a third space indicates that as a society we don't really believe that they are the sex they're saying they are - which is true, but not something they want to hear.

Oh Coffee good timing. We had a v similar question / thread 9 days ago, even including how vehement the tone was! this will def help you catch up

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3692781-Middle-ground?pg=1

When we talk about “including” people in society, we generally mean they should have equal opportunities for education and employment, not suffer disadvantage in such things as housing and healthcare and see representations of themselves in the mainstream media.

We don’t mean such people should take precedence over everyone else, except for instances (such as shortlists and selection), where systematic oppression has denied people opportunity.

Inclusion doesn’t mean creating a special class of people we all have to be super-nice to. Being a member of a minority group doesn’t stop you being a sexual predator, incompetent or an arsehole. It doesn’t mean other people need to go out of the way to be especially nice to you; it doesn’t mean they should give up their rights, (which is different from privilege) to you; it doesn’t mean you’re excused from following the same rules that apply in civil society.

On a personal level my answer to how I treat trans people would be: with the same courtesy I try and show to everyone, but with the same caution I apply to all unknown men, in the case of transwomen.

I will say that the statistics about the number of transwomen who are in prison for sexual offences, and the threatening behaviour, and display of kink, written and actual, which seems to be a hallmark of trans activists, means I’d treat a transwomen unknown to me with considerable reservation.

Not sure you analogy really works. A young man is still a man, just as an old man is, and an old man was once a young man. A transwoman is not a woman and never has been.

I've been trying for a while to think of an analogy, and I finally came up with this one when I visited a very elderly relative in a home.

There were a couple of dozen very elderly and frail people in this home, all with their own lockable room. But even so, what if a young person, a student say, decided it was out of order that he couldn't live there? It's very expensive but never mind. Imagine how inappropriate that would be, to have a young student marching down the corridor while you, a very elderly person, limped along on your zimmer frame. Young staff are trained btw and it's not the same as being in a peer group of residents.

You would feel vulnerable, embarassed, perhaps, by issues affecting the elderly body. This is because young people are (usually) stronger than you, and don''t have those elderly body issues (and there are very many).

I would feel vulnerable and embarassed by sharing tolilets etc with men. This is because men are (usually) stronger than me, and don't have my woman's body issues (which are ever changing).

Interesting question if you come back.

How do you think we should include all people in our society? What is your ideal? How can we protect the rights of women without ostracising male and female trans people from our society?

You need to re-think your acceptable ‘collateral damage’ POV because that just totally undermines your aim or exposes your bias. I don’t have enough data to decide which yet.

There is no need for gender segregation. If segregation is warranted, it should be by sex. So as a society, we can continue to review where women and men need to be treated differently or provisioned for separately.

Women need laws that reflect their role in the reproductive process.

Society does not need rules that restrict who is allowed to wear dresses or pants.

Reviewing norms really isn’t that hard and benefits everyone.

In those cases where separation is warranted, transgender individuals should be accommodated with other members who share their biological sex.

My issue here is I can’t see why trans women should have additional rights compared to other groups of vulnerable male humans. Weak men, effeminate men, openly gay men, men with certain mental health issues are ALL at elevated risk of assault from certain predatory and violent men.

Shouldn’t we be asking how to help and protect these men, as well as Transwomen ? Why do transwomen get more rights than other members of their sex who are similarly disadvantaged?

BTW my iPhone has just decided to start AUTOCORRECTing transwoman to “trans woman”

Please don't flame me I'm trying to learn.
I've never knowingly met a transwoman, but have met a few FTM transmen. They truly believe they are male, but born in the wrong body, the medication, and top and bottom surgery they've put themselves through is horrendous and gruelling (IMO) just to be accepted. I suppose this is different from MTF trans people though.
I do think a third space is the best option for the safety of women and the trans people at risk of violence.

I'd treat transwomen the same way I treat other men - warily, with an acceptance that all humans have human rights, but that males don't come with an extra helping of 'rights to trample over women's needs and preferences'.

There are some lovely males out there, of all kinds of gender expressions, and when I find out they are lovely - properly so, in behaviour, not just in words - I may drop the wariness and get to know them.

I think the best way to accomodate gender-variant males is for men to expand their concept of maleness.

Like everyone else. Third space if appropriate, not a big deal. Protect from violent men, always a big deal.

Your question is for Trans people to work out, we are not here to solve your problems, we’ve got enough to do thanks very much.