How should we treat trans people?

This thread is great, it lays everything out from the first page. I hope HQ don't delete it.

I notice the OP has twice referred to "a women"

Wasn’t there another poster who did that?

It's the cauldrons, you see. They're always in danger of overflowing and causing flooding, rising damp, and genocide.

It's all in the tells

If you go on twitter you will see that the biggest threat to TW are TERF witches who apparently commit TW genocide by thinking wrong thoughts and therefore violence against this group can apparently be justified. These as women, TERF witches, use women’s spaces so surely that makes these spaces far far more risky than men’s toilets. Universities spend thousands on extra security whenever women meet due to this sort of dangerous wrong think by women.

I notice the OP has twice referred to "a women"

Obligatory insert here - if your boyfriend is flirting with someone then you really should be angry with him, not the other person.

Not even a little bit.

Being attacked for flirting with someone else’s boyfriend? So not just because they were trans then.

(Just to be clear - TM are my siblings and welcome in any space I am in. But I’ve been told that it’s patronising when women treat TM like women, so I want to respect their identity and preference for male spaces (if that is what they want. TM are not a monolith though - so those who want to use female spaces should feel welcome to.)

I heard of one case of a transwoman being attacked in a toilet in America, but it was a women's toilet (in a McDonalds I believe) and was about one of the young women in there thinking the transwoman was flirting with her boyfriend.

There is evidence that women are at increased risk of sexual offences, or even murder when male persons access their spaces.

Is there evidence of TW facing an increased risk when accessing male spaces? I’ve looked, but not found any.

TW are, tragically, murdered by men (or occasionally by other TW). None that I am aware of occurred in connection with male spaces though - moreso sex work or intimate partner violence.

Whereas many women and girls have been raped in female spaces, by males who seemingly followed them in for this purpose.

It’s all in the shoulders. Just watch people walk.

even though yes, testosterone can make some big changes, height stays the same, and voice isn't always changed as much as you might think

Also, like Shakira says, hips don't lie.

How should we treat transwhat? Sexual or gender? Big difference.

trans women in men’s spaces would be very unsafe for trans women in terms of violence

In what possible way is it acceptable to put 50% of the population at greater risk with no affect on the 1%'s risk? (since if men can come in the ladies, they are now effectively mixed sex, so the risk to transwomen continues)

What would actually benefit us all is for transwomen to use men's toilets, with the support and protection of all the men who aren't planning to beat them up, to widen the bandwidth of being male, make femininity acceptable to them, and possibly as a lovely 'double effect' reduce general male violence!

I thought TM want to use male bathrooms - and since they don’t pose a risk to males, why shouldn’t they?

I'm not sure they do - I've read more than one article by transmen who use the womens toilets, because they don't feel safe in the mens (and don't have the right equipment - because they are not the right sex).

We've worked previously on the honour system, and TBH I trust transmen rather more to be considerate and honest, and yes, I think that just like the rest of us, you can generally tell the sex of trans people (even though yes, testosterone can make some big changes, height stays the same, and voice isn't always changed as much as you might think)

trans women in men’s spaces would be very unsafe for trans women in terms of violence

So you say men are at risk from other men in men’s spaces, and your solution is have men in women’s spaces so women are at risk from men too?

Also, as you seem to have a distorted view of risk: transwomen are pretty much the safest demographic in terms of risk from murder: they have a lower rate of murder of any other group worldwide (even in the Favelas of Brazil). In the UK there are more trans murderers than trans people murdered.

Why do people always raise Trans Men as though it’s some kind of a gotcha?

I thought TM want to use male bathrooms - and since they don’t pose a risk to males, why shouldn’t they?

People aren’t arguing for a strict male/ female binary provision.

They are arguing, mostly, for female spaces - where male people cannot go.

But yes, if TM want to use them they are welcome of course (my understanding though is that they don’t want to, and find it insulting, so we should respect that).

In theory, gender-critical women on this board ARE happy to share single-sex spaces with all females, transmen included. However, testosterone is such an effective masculiniser that transmen who have been on it for a long time aren’t easy to pick out by the typical woman on the street, so sharing single-sex spaces with these transmen is problematic.

Do you think we actually want to say something different, Decomposing? If so, why?

I wouldn't speak for all women because I am not all women but I personally am fine sharing spaces with transmen. There can be an initial moment of WTF but then you take a second look and listen to the voice and the sex becomes clear.

I do find it interesting that women are happy that transmen share female spaces, becuase I have also seen IRL that men are not happy that transwomen share male spaces. Surely the question should therefor be addressed at a Male dominated group?

How can you say all women are happy to share women's spaces with transmen? On what basis do you make that assumption?

Sure, on this board that's what people say because they can't really say anything else can they? If they say transmen should use men's spaces then they can't say trans women can't use women's spaces.

OP, your info sounds quite out of date.

Many HR professionals in my industry prefer TW over women (not “officially” of course - that would be discriminatory).

TW tick the “diversity” box while not (in most cases) having primary responsibility for children - both seen as beneficial from an HR perspective.

Why would you assume TW’s employment prospects are worse off than those of women?

How do we treat trans people? With the same respect as anyone else, with specialised provision where appropriate. E.g. for those in prison - with a dedicated trans wing.