How should we treat trans people?

EmpressLesbianInChair totally! Hit the nail on the head.
Few weeks back I was in a woman's toilet. A man came out of the cubical and was at the mirror.
I was shocked and so angry.
As someone who is assertive I lost my voice, for the first time ever. I'm so angry I didn't speak up.
However an assertive woman equates to being a transphobe

It's a way for society and men to be mysoginistic and silence us.

Forcing women to lie is not perceived by the women as respectful, because it's not respectful. It's also unkind and downright inconsiderate.

Treating a transwoman as a man is not perceived as respect

Transwomen claiming to be women is very disrespectful to all women, it dismisses Women’s oppression, their vulnerability, fear, abuse at the hands of men, it prevents women taking part in society, destroys our sport, reinforces harmful sexist stereotypes, puts us at risk medically and ultimately costs some women their lives. It is also a lie. Why should I respect such a man?

No one is denying that TW exist. TW clearly do exist. Many people work with or know TW in real life. We all want them to have all civil rights and not face discrimination.

TW are not female though. There is nothing wrong with that! But it matters in some situations - it’s is not fair to put TW on the female estate in prison, for example.

We need some female spaces.

wacademia, thank you, you articulated clearly what I was trying to get across in my late night posting about Double Effect.

Does this mean BJ and the Orange Overlord are actually Tinkerbell?

Oh gods. No, universe. We are not going there. Brave and stunning Boris would be the last straw that breaks me, I think.

Wait, will this denying people exist and then they cease to thing work on Trump and Boris Johnson?

shuts eyes and wishes really really hard 🤞

Wait, will this denying people exist and then they cease to thing work on Trump and Boris Johnson?

Yes but that person wasn't posting in good faith. Funny that?

No? Surely not?! My gast is well and truly flabbered! 😱😁

What happens when you deny the existence of someone? Do they suddenly disappear in a puff of smoke? If people deny the existence of a male who identifies a woman and they cease to exist, does that mean the children they fathered cease to exist too? Is it like a Doctor Who logic? So many questions, but I’ll wait for a nice logical answer that will make it all clear to me.

I can think of circumstances where I would be uncomfortable with trans women being in that space but I would feel that there comfort triumphs my discomfort because life is harder for them and they don’t easily belong any where...

Stop sympathising and start empathising.

When males are allowed in female-only spaces because they are uncomfortable, female lives become harder, females experience greater discomfort.

By catering to their discomfort and trauma and hardship, you exclude me from humanity, you exclude me from public life, you exclude me from feeling as though my pain matters as much as theirs does.

Life is very hard for me, coffee. Male violence and abuse and sexuality has made it very hard for me. I experience a great deal of discomfort because of it. I have met the clinical threshold for profound "gender dysphoria" all my life. You admit you do not meet this threshold, and that those with gendered dysphoria crippling their lives must be accommodated over you.

You are increasing my discomfort and the hardness of my life, by prioritising males with gendered dysphoria over females with gendered dysphoria. This is sexism.

You make things worse for the girls with gendered dysphoria, by casting them out and drawing their brothers in tight. You are saving the sons by sacrificing the daughters. This is patriarchy in action, and it's happening inside your brain right now.

It would depend what they were doing at the time.
Getting on with their life, fine.
If its a transwoman appropriating things specifically for women, then I think we need to stand up for women and our spaces

*meaning, not making

"It’s your insistence that twanw that they are equating with denying their existence. They say they are a woman, you say they are not."

I'm not sure how people debating the making of a word is denying the existence of anything - could you talk me through the logic please? I'm clearly not clever enough to get it.

I think most people would instinctively say side effect so the word choice is interesting.

If I drive drunk I may not intend to cause an accident and kill someone but if I do it's still manslaughter.

equate "treat people with the same respect you would anyone else" with denying their existence.

It’s your insistence that twanw that they are equating with denying their existence. They say they are a woman, you say they are not.

Treating a trans woman as a man is not perceived as respect.

I love that I learn something new here every day! Re the "double effect."

A "double effect" is something that one has decided is acceptable as-is and requires no mitigation.

That’s a very interesting insight, wacademia. Thank you.

It also fits with the Stonewall view that since women are going to be raped anyway, our safety & comfort are irrelevant compared to that of the men who want priority in our spaces

this is not what trans people are campaigning for?

It is what trans people are campaigning for. If you can foresee something bad happening as a consequence of your actions and continue with those actions anyway, then you have deliberately brought about a bad thing. If I were to break the speed limit driving past a school and hit and kill a child, I would have deliberately brought about that child's because hitting a child is a very foreseeable outcome of speeding near a school.

More an unfortunate double effect?

Interestingly religious choice of words here. A PP already explained what "double effect" is in practice. In theological terms, it is used to render unsinful actions that would otherwise be sinful, such as the use of combined oral contraceptive pills to treat gynaecological illness despite artificial contraceptives being usually forbidden.

It's a very interesting choice of words, because a "side-effect" is something that one would seek to mitigate and one might deem a side-effect as sufficient grounds for stopping the action. A "double effect" is something that one has decided is acceptable as-is and requires no mitigation.

Transwomen generally don't want third spaces. They want validation, which means using women's spaces.

D'you know what I'd like?

I'd like the option of a single-sex space, so when I'm triggered and vulnerable I can escape. This means I can still participate in life. It is of prime importance to me.

And I'd like the option of a unisex space, so that when I'm fine and with someone of the opposite sex who's feeling vulnerable, I can stay with them, so they can still participate in life.

Why should it have to be one or the other? Why can't we have both? Why must my natural human urge to protect male friends with trauma issues be made mandatory by law, but my natural human urge to protect female friends with trauma issues (including myself) be made illegal and discriminatory and an excuse to advocate for violence against me?

Regardless of the finer points (which toilets trans men "should" use etc) pretty much all the responses on this thread have said the same thing, as have the responses on all the previous threads that ask the same question.

Yet Stonewall et al continue to state first and foremost that the biggest struggle for them is people "debating trans people’s right to exist."

I'm amazed that all the TRAs watching mumsnet so carefully haven't pointed this error out to them? It's bizarre that they continue to equate "treat people with the same respect you would anyone else" with denying their existence.

According to the NAS the rate of autism is more than 1% in the population, so higher than your figure of 1%.
Why aren't autistic people getting the right to self declare as autistic (rather than going through a long, drawn out and intrusive diagnostic process), get fast track access to support services and the right to make workplaces 100% suitable to them? Why do so many autistic adults find it hard to hold down full time jobs? Employers are less likely to employ an autistic person than an NT person.
Some shops do an autism hour, perhaps they could have a trans hour?
Why should the autistic person be made to lie about a person's sex when this may be difficult for them?
Plainly once you get into the competing rights of different groups of people you have to make choices. Sometimes the minority cannot have it all their own way and compromise is required.

What is the ideal - how can we protect the rights of women without ostracising trans people from our society?

All people must have the same civil rights, no matter their background, identity or affiliation. However, that does not that we have to wholesale swallow a ridiculous ideology that states the impossible, goes against reality, and attempts to enforce speech on others. No, to gender Self ID, and no, to males taking part in women's sports, running on women-only short-lists, or using female only facilities.

Simple.

Look at Peter thatchel and his comments on women. He's a mysoginist who lays all trans violence and murders at the feet of women!

It’s very, very clear that both Peter Tatchell & Owen Jones know transwomen are men. Because otherwise they’d give them the same lack of respect they give women.

Men shouldn't be allowed in women's spaces.
We should not have to put ourselves at risk or lose our dignity to accommodate a small minority of men who enjoy dressing like women.
I completely disregard the notion that you can be ' born in the wrong body'.
For boys/men to say they are a female wtf does that mean?
I am 36 and have no idea what it feels like to be a woman

This is both a man's and a trans problem and I don't think women should give a shit HOWEVER as ever it is our problem and we get the sole blame because women are easy to pick on and blame.
Look at Peter thatchel and his comments on women. He's a mysoginist who lays all trans violence and murders at the feet of women!