How should we treat trans people?

We’ve got two sets of competing rights here, always a tricky situation and not easy to resolve

But as far as the TRAs/MRAs are concerned, that’s not actually true, is it! As far as they are concerned there are no ‘competing rights’. There is simply the ‘fact’, as far as they’re concerned, that they are demanding special rights and women who say that they need protection are simply ‘terfs/transphobes’. They won’t even acknowledge that women are trying to protect the rights of females. The TRAs/MRAs won’t acknowledge that there is no *competing rights’ or that it’s a ‘tricky situation’. They want our spaces and we’re expected to hand them over. Not happening, without a fight. Though, unlike male bodied people, the feminists will not be physically violent.

Tell me why it is women who need to do the accommodating and make changes to the definition of who we are as a group and sex class.

It’s not just the definition of women, it’s the definition of men as well. You don’t have to have a penis or a Y chromosome to be a man nowadays you know!

What compromises are trans people wanting to make to help us feel safe and respected?

Some not much. There does seem to be general agreement amongst trans people that people like KW shouldn’t be in women’s prisons and Yaniv is not entitled to have their nether region waxed in a woman only salon etc.

if they say they really are women and you say they are not, you’re basically saying that what they say they are, doesn’t actually exist

Histrionic hyperbole and misdirection.

Okay. Let's say anyone who says they are is a woman and anyone who says they are is a man. The class of people formerly known as women are now bobbles and the people formerly known as men are unbobbles.

Nothing has changed. Bobbles are still different to unbobbles. Bobbles are still vulnerable to rape by unbobbles. Unbobbles are still over-represented in powerful positions. Unbobbles still display entitlement. Bobbles still needs safe spaces that only bobbles can go into. Bobbles still need affirmative action to address inequities. Unbobbles can still beat bobbles at sport.

Both bobbles and unbobbles continue to exist and continue to be entirely different from one another.

By debating whether they are women or not is essentially asking are they valid as women

Well yeah. Men aren’t women. Just because someone claims something daft, doesn’t mean I have to go along with it, even if that really, really upsets them

It’s debating their existence because if they say they really are women and you say they are not, you’re basically saying that what they say they are, doesn’t actually exist

No

Saying someone is not what they claim to be (e.g. ‘you’re not a qualified doctor’) isn’t questioning their existence

By debating whether they are women or not is essentially asking are they valid as women. It’s debating their existence because if they say they really are women and you say they are not, you’re basically saying that what they say they are, doesn’t actually exist.

What they are is adult human males, of or denoting the sex that produces sperm, saying they are adult human females, of or denoting the sex that produces eggs.

These people exist. They are valid.

As do adult human females. They also exist.

They are not the same people. No one, including themselves, thinks it.

Fieldofgreycorn

Normally, when competing rights are at issue, there is debate, negotiation, a weighing up of history, risk, damage, etc. along with fundamental values.

I refer you to this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3697155-Nuanced-debate-RE-changes-to-the-GRA?pg=1

How was I patronizing? I honestly have no clue what I am supposed to be doing in order to be “respectful” to trans women and women both.

If it’s about sex stereotypes, upholding these is misogynistic.

If it is about pronouns, I will say “you” and use their name when talking to them. Using 3rd person pronouns and salutations when speaking to someone doesn’t make grammatical sense anyway.

So it’s about spaces? But Why should spaces and woman’s awards be segregated by gender identity rather than sex? I am being “disrespectful” to women or trans women no matter what I do. Female women are losing out on those awards to male women, who experienced the privileges of growing up male in patriarchy.

Women have a right to privacy from males. Trans woman have a right... for everyone to pretend they are female? But Why? How is this respectful to either women or transwomen?

I know from experience with my partner who was once trans identified that living this lie is psychologically damaging. You know everyone is lying to you when they pretend you are the sex you are not. Lying to trans identified people does no one any good.

We’ve got two sets of competing rights here, always a tricky situation and not easy to resolve.

Tell me why it is women who need to do the accommodating and make changes to the definition of who we are as a group and sex class.

What compromises are trans people wanting to make to help us feel safe and respected?

We’ve got two sets of competing rights here, always a tricky situation and not easy to resolve.

It's not really that tricky. Men are men and women are women. Men can't be women and women can't be men. We all have the same human rights.

if they say they really are women and you say they are not, you’re basically saying that what they say they are, doesn’t actually exist.

No, we're saying that what they say they are isn't what they actually are. Transwomen are not women. Only men can be transwomen. Men are not women.

What they say they are exists, but doesn't include them. Saying transwomen are men doesn't stop them from existing.

Males who insist they are no different to females are denying the existence of women.

Stop denying our existence!

Yes I totally get that, and logically it makes sense.
We’ve got two sets of competing rights here, always a tricky situation and not easy to resolve.

I'm not sure how people debating the meaning of a word is denying the existence of anything - could you talk me through the logic please? I'm clearly not clever enough to get it.

How self deprecating. Somehow I don’t believe you think you are not clever enough.
By debating whether they are women or not is essentially asking are they valid as women. It’s debating their existence because if they say they really are women and you say they are not, you’re basically saying that what they say they are, doesn’t actually exist.

I think trans men should qualify for shortlists - they are under represented in politics.

FWR’s post was perfectly civil, and her question is a good one. I can use the pronouns and say “Ms”, no problem. Doesn’t mean that person should be in a female shelter.

No one is required to validate another person’s self perception. Forcing a woman to treat an adult male “like a woman” (eg by sharing a room in a hostel) is creepy and weird.

Males who insist they are no different to females are denying the existence of women.

Stop denying our existence!

That kind of gynophobia that has led to the actual, literal deaths of 70,000,000 girls and women — a significant global population shift that has taken place, thanks to femicide and sex-selective abortion, wherein males now outnumber women.

So by denying our existence, transactivists are contributing to the global genocide of women.

There: we can play the hyperbole game too.

"The question over whether gender self-identification “will lead to men raping women” is, she says, the wrong one. “Men are always going to rape women."

I don't doubt it.

Where RH and I differ is that RH thinks a few raped women and girls are acceptable collateral damage in the grand quest to make all the boys feel better about not being sufficiently powerful Manly Men.

And I can't help but note that there's a direct inverse correlation between the severity of punishment rapists receive, and the severity of trauma inflicted on their victims.

Enabling rape to make men feel better: it's the very basis of patriarchy.

Field, you're back! Any chance you could answer my question above? I genuinely want to learn what is meant by the repeated statement so I don't look stupid.

No you refer to them as he or Mr, tell them to use the men’s toilets and tell them they’re not allowed to apply to a woman only shortlist.

My god. The sheer inhumanity of such treatment.

A more interesting question perhaps is “how do I talk to someone civilly on a forum?” Preferably not in the patronising way you just did to me, would be my suggestion.

Now, watch your tone, woman.

How do I “treat someone as a man?” Do I start talking to them about sports and beer instead of makeup and cute boys?

No you refer to them as he or Mr, tell them to use the men’s toilets and tell them they’re not allowed to apply to a woman only shortlist.

A more interesting question perhaps is “how do I talk to someone civilly on a forum?” Preferably not in the patronising way you just did to me, would be my suggestion.

“Treating a trans woman as a man is not perceived as respect.”

How do I “treat someone as a man?” Do I start talking to them about sports and beer instead of makeup and cute boys?

If someone is male then they are male, however since I believe gender stereotypes are evil and toxic, I work to treat people as individuals.

I think Ruth Hunt needs to take a long hard look in the mirror while contemplating the kind of person she's become.

Thanks ladies, your search engine hints paid off.

interview

MN thread from May 2019

I think Linda Bellos should be put in charge of Stonewall and Ruth Hunt has no business being a lord.

Again the equality act has put the onus on women having to make the judgment call to whether or not a man looks manly enough.

The poster was talking about transmen though in regards to the Equality Act and how male someone looks.

"The question over whether gender self-identification “will lead to men raping women” is, she says, the wrong one. “Men are always going to rape women."

source: www.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/19/ruth-hunt-stonewall-moral-responsibility-fight-trans-people

It was a Guardian interview. Where she also criticised the 'intellectual stupidity' of gender critical people.

here

DecomposingComposers

Interesting
Again the equality act has put the onus on women having to make the judgment call to whether or not a man looks manly enough.

To me Men are men regardless of how many hormones they pump into their bodies. I will not have a man appropriate as a woman and ever accept it.