How should we treat trans people?

Gender identity is crap isn't...

It's no different to "stereotype" is it?

If we as a society remove the sex stereotypes, there would be no gender identity.

It's based on crap, boy things and girl things aren't real.

What's the problem with calling them a transsexual?

They may be transsexual. But in law you are either a man or a woman. You have to be recorded as one or the other, given the rights of one or the other, treated as one or the other.

I’m never sure what anyone is trying to prove by winning these kind of arguments.

Like pps said, the trans community consists of individuals who should socially be treated with as much respect as any other.

Trans spaces and social areas where you can support each other sounds a worthy area to campaign for. But this is the trans communities job, not womens.

Expecting and forcing women to be your personal therapists and campaigners and support workers isn’t on. People don’t take well to being blackmailed.

Forcing a few women into calling you “she” isn’t going to solve anything.

Plus, this mythical “female solidarity and community and spirit ” which you think you are being denied access to? It doesn’t fucking exist.

We don’t all have cosy sleepover parties in pink pyjamas and get special privileges for being “girly girls”. You’re thinking of Clueless or Gilmore Girls or the life of a drag queen.

I’m fairly physically conventionally attractive and I’ve received nothing but negative attention and hassle and bullying from men and women for it.

I certainly don’t walk around “feeling comfortable with my lovely breasts and vulva” but I can’t just imagine my way out of them. Oh, and that doesn’t make me a man.

Gender identity is a new concept to a lot of us. I'd never heard of it until about 5 years ago, maybe even less than that. It may have been used in some specialist areas before that, but it's not something that most people would have heard of until very recently.

The problem seems to be with your definitions of what 'a man' is like, or what a man must think, feel etc.

Someone recorded female at birth who chooses to have their breasts removed because they want a flat chest, takes testosterone to develop a beard and deep voice and is entirely happy and more comfortable with themselves - has an identity as a man.

That person has a male gender identity and they will be considered a man by most people.

I can't help feeling all this would be somewhat less of an issue if men could stop 'misgendering' boys and men who don't meet their masculinity-expectations, by calling them girls.

In what way is this just a problem about men though?

Any discussion on here acts as though there are only TW. If men calling less masculine boys "girls" is the problem what is the reason for transmen?

Probably not to her face, because it would be rude, but yeah, Decomposing, I would. And if necessary I'd point out that she's female.

Really? Why would you do that though?

It is a fairly modern invention that arose out of Queer Theory in the 1980s/90s.

It really isn’t. It’s been accepted within modern psychiatry for 60 years.

Probably not to her face, because it would be rude, but yeah, Decomposing, I would. And if necessary I'd point out that she's female.

I can't help feeling all this would be somewhat less of an issue if men could stop 'misgendering' boys and men who don't meet their masculinity-expectations, by calling them girls.

I will not give that honorific to any normally chromosomal and developmental man no matter his 'feelings'.

So you would call a transman, with a beard and male pattern baldness who's had a phalloplasty a woman then?

But these days there is more than one way to be a woman

Complete and utter claptrap.

These days, as throughout human history, there is only one way to be a woman. That is to be determined female at conception and be fortunate enough to achieve the state of adulthood.

This is the only thing I, and every other woman, share in common. We do not share it with anybody determined male at conception, though I am willing to give the honorific 'woman' to males born with ambiguous genitalia out of compassion for their complex and often distressing medical conditions.

I will not give that honorific to any normally chromosomal and developmental man no matter his 'feelings'.

Personally I don’t believe that someone who is more comfortable with breasts and a surgically fashioned vulva can be said to be a man. It doesn’t fit my definition of ‘man’
What's the problem with calling them a transsexual? That's what they are. A male transsexual. Completely different, in fact virtually incomparable to a woman.

I meant that in every day life men are also required not to misgender etc men do it all the time though, and aren't subject to violent rape/death threats, called stupid names like terf/farts or banned from social media.... So they aren't expected to not misgender or call a man a man etc anywhere close to as much.

Re:surgery same argument could be applied to any “artificial” beauty construct:

-breast size
-whiteness of skin and teeth
-long hair length
-wearing pink
-wearing heels and dresses

None of these are “natural” for women. A lot of women don’t perform these or have these. Women may have had breasts surgically removed for health reasons or not have long hair.

They are still identifiable to everyone else and are women.

If a bloke wants to call himself Lulu and get 30FF implants he’s free to do so and should not be mocked (although I personally would find his appearance incredibly unattractive) but he’s not a woman

You don’t have to. You can go on believing what you want and conceptualising yourself however you like surely?

Yes, but however we do that, we are still female, and still women.

Personal identity centres on many things, and changes and transmutes throughout one's life. There is never really any fixed sense of self - apart from the immutable aspects, such as sex, race, family background.......

Personally I don’t believe that someone who is more comfortable with breasts and a surgically fashioned vulva can be said to be a man. It doesn’t fit my definition of ‘man’

Male, then. They are still male.

The problem seems to be with your definitions of what 'a man' is like, or what a man must think, feel etc.

It also hinges on the acceptance of the concept of gender identity

Precisely! And most people do not accept that such a thing exists. It is a fairly modern invention that arose out of Queer Theory in the 1980s/90s.

What a precarious position to be in - to only feel that you can exist if everyone/the world pretends to go along with this idea.

I’m not trying to change any of your minds. I can see the logical consistency in your arguments. One way or another everyone has to try and get on somehow

The best way to do that is for you to accept material reality, and then campaign for your own spaces. Spaces in which you can feel validated, safe and confirmed.

It is outrageous and disrespectful in the extreme to try to suggest that being a woman is just something in someone's ( a man's) head.

But these days there is more than one way to be a woman. It just makes them a different type of woman

You make it sound as if you have stumbled upon something mind-blowing..... Of course there are multiple ways of 'being a woman' because women, apart from what unites them ( their sex class) are all different. Men cannot become women, except in their imagination.

It’s not just the definition of women, it’s the definition of men as well. You don’t have to have a penis or a Y chromosome to be a man nowadays you know!

Don't be ridiculous! Can you even hear yourself? what you are saying is so regressive. It is as if the women's movement and the gay liberation movements never happened.

It is almost as if this is a spoof account I'm responding to.

Ignoring any (really fucking dull) TRA word salads I’m simply not going to start calling a bloke “she”.

That’s what is meant by that casual little phrase “misgendering”, yes?

I’m not pointing and sniggering or being discourteous, if someone is gender ambiguous I’ll compromise by saying “they” or ideally their preferred name or nickname.

Otherwise it’s all a bit Emperors New Clothes isn’t it? Very Orwellian and Brave New World. Reappropriation of language.

I also don’t feel comfortable sharing a hostel room or private space with a penis/cock/dick possessing blokey McBlokefaced bloke who is clearly not a vagina/cunt possessing woman and obviously a manly Mcmanfaced man man.

Men are required to be equally courteous (or play along as you might call it).

Well, tell the ones who don't identify as trans to be welcoming to their non-conforming brethren. Then tell the ones who do identify as trans to respect women's rights and stay out of their spaces.

Why not impose that sort of courtesy?

By debating whether they are women or not is essentially asking are they valid as women. It’s debating their existence because if they say they really are women and you say they are not, you’re basically saying that what they say they are, doesn’t actually exist

The simple, unvarnished truth is that men are not women, and males cannot become females. it is impossible. That some people like to think of themselves in a certain way does not mean that the whole of society has to accept an essentially false premise - purely in order to protect someone's fragile sense of self.

Nobody ceases to exist just because the whole world does not reflect back to them what they believe to be true. As human beings we all have to live wit such dissonance and build a sense of self and ego that is not so precious and easily broken. If it is so fragile, it suggests that it has no real root, or strength, to begin with.

What are the characteristics of a woman’s gender identity?

I'm bouncing up and down on the edge of my seat with my hand in the air here. Note to self: shut up and let the rest of the class speak.

It also hinges on the acceptance of the concept of gender identity

What are the characteristics of a woman’s gender identity? What are the characteristics of a man’s?

If you don’t want to answer this question, maybe have a little think about why

Why are we discussing gender identities and courtesy? Women's rights and protections have nothing whatsoever to do with how you feel about your inner essence, or your personality quirks, or your appearance. They're also not about courtesy. That's why they encompass all women. They just don't encompass men, whatever those men feel like, and whatever they have done to their bodies because of their view of themselves. This isn't remotely complicated.