How should we treat trans people?

Someone recorded female at birth who chooses to have their breasts removed because they want a flat chest, takes testosterone to develop a beard and deep voice and is entirely happy and more comfortable with themselves - has an identity as a man

This is a mental health issue. What someone feels or identifies 'as' does not make it real or true in the objective, material world of other people.The vast majority of trans people do not 'pass' anyway. They appear as what they are - because people instinctively register sex.

OldCrone

Personally I don't like the term "non women". I would like to see spaces for "women" and then "unisex" because I think that would help lots of people - including parents with opposite sex children for example.

But that's just my preference. Other people might have reasons to disagree.

Of course, it's not just spaces like toilets is it?

Many people on here argue for female only groups, like book clubs, for example because they say that the presence of a man changes the dynamic. So in these cases TM would be welcome in a women only group, but again, I would see a person that looks like a man as a man so the argument that a man would change the dynamic would apply for.me if it were a TM too.

Clearly the world is changing and we are having to consider situations that we haven't come across before. There is a lot to be worked out.

It really isn’t. It’s been accepted within modern psychiatry for 60 years

Transsexualism, yes......not transgenderism.

The fact you mention psychiatry is pertinent and to the point. This is primarily an issue of mental health.

I think the original point was that e.g. abortion services are needed by women, even if they look NGC.
Most of us agree on the third space option and can hammer out the details once we've secured our existing rights.

Transmen are welcome in female spaces.

I honestly don't think that many women would feel.like this. How many people would honestly see a bearded person in a women's toilet and think " that's a woman"? Most people would look and think "why is a man in here" and react accordingly.

That's how I would feel. Studies have been talked about on here stating that eg while crime patterns amongst tw follow the trends of natal men, TM commit crimes at similar rates to men.

So.its far more complicated than you make out.

But in order for your views on tw to work you have to totally ignore the possibility of TM being in female spaces. I just cannot see how that will work.

What about spaces for women and spaces for non-women? Non-women would include men, transwomen (because they're male) and transmen (who are women who don't want to be women).

So women keep their safe spaces away from men, and everyone else can go with the men, because men don't need safe spaces in the same way as women do.

If for whatever reason you were uncomfortable around men I don't believe that you would see a TM as a woman.

Thanks for the invalidation, mate.

Transmen are welcome in female spaces. If they would rather have an additional unisex space available they have my full support in this. They have human rights and women's rights, because they are both human and female.

To me, I would be sharing a space, be that a toilet, hospital ward, changing room, with a man

Right, one that happens to be giving birth to a baby!

BeMoreMagdalen

I've always argued for 3rd spaces.

And I don't think TM are a "gotcha" I just think most of the arguments put forward on here can only work if everyone only focuses on TW. If you consider TM then many of the arguments can't work. If you argue that people can't change sex and that no matter what you do to your body you remain the sex you were at conception then it follows that TM, even those who are indistinguishable from natal men, shod be treated as women, which to me, makes no sense.

If for whatever reason you were uncomfortable around men I don't believe that you would see a TM as a woman. But in order for your views on tw to work you have to totally ignore the possibility of TM being in female spaces. I just cannot see how that will work.

By debating whether they are women or not is essentially asking are they valid as women.

This whole idea of "validity" is yet another example of a specialist bit of language usage that has been turned on its head and used to promote male rights.

In a group therapeutic context, ground rules are established at the start. One of these will be something about not invalidating others' perspectives.

What this means is, everyone's expected to be mindful of the fact that we all have different experiences and perspectives, and they make sense to us right now, and straight-up calling them bollocks isn't going to help anyone in the group.

It doesn't mean affirming people's opinions or self-beliefs as fact. It doesn't mean nothing can be gently challenged or explored. It's basically just a reminder to not be a narcissistic dick just because someone's interpretation of themself or their experiences doesn't match your own.

Yet another useful idea perverted by the patriarchal mainstream.

There's no such thing as an invalid woman, there's no such thing as a valid woman. It's obfuscatory bollocks.

So transwomen can't not be women as the word woman is already defined and they do not fit within that definition (and same for transmen and the word men).

I don't understand why people who are trans are so ashamed of being trans (if they were proud they wouldn't need to try and erase their past and try to enforce pronouns etc as it wouldn't matter as it doesn't make you who you are change).

Gender critical people just want safe sex segrated spaces and I think on the whole have no issue with trans people, the people who the trans community feel are supporting them just now still will.

Trans people should be proud to be trans and as long as they are hurting no one and children are left to decide when they are mature enough.

Third space would be the most logical option and would help others in society as well, but sadly this suggestion does not appear to be well received in the trans community.

Women can have male patterned baldness! It’s not just for boys... although I suspect a trans woman would get wigs and plugs on the NHS...

They can't. I have androgenic alopecia, aka female pattern baldness, a mix of shitty genetics and hormones. Women do get wigs on NHS, I've never heard of a man getting a wig on the NHS for any kind of alopecia and I expect a trans woman would be treated as a woman here. I have no idea if a trans person who would be genetically predisposed to either of these type of baldness would still get them with cross sex hormones.

Decomposing, yeah, whatever. I know you only consider female born trans people when you think they provide this ridiculous gotcha, despite me just mentioning them in the context of their sex which is the relevant point here, not their identity.

I'll say it again because you seem to find it so confusing, despite it being said over and over on this thread alone. Third spaces. And women retain their rights.

The female born trans people do need specific women's rights, because they may need access to abortion services etc.

I don't follow this.

It's talked about all the time on here about how posters don't want to be forced into refuting what they see with their own eyes.

I would find it impossible to see a male presenting person, with a beard, and think "oh yes. She's a woman".

To me, I would be sharing a space, be that a toilet, hospital ward, changing room, with a man. I wouldn't be reacting as though the person was a woman and I really don't believe that many people would.

I'd say "Fucked if we're letting anyone recondition us back into meek compliance" but the very first word of that sentence says it all, doesn't it?

Succinctly

Gender id should never outweigh bio sex, because the reason we separate by sex are because of sex, not gender id. Trans people deserve human rights, the same as any other human.

The male-born trans people do not need specific women's rights. Because they are not of the female sex, so they have no need for them. The female born trans people do need specific women's rights, because they may need access to abortion services etc.

I think testosterone can induce this

Baldness may be but not male pattern baldness.

Women can have male patterned baldness! It’s not just for boys... although I suspect a trans woman would get wigs and plugs on the NHS...

StopThePlanet, has made the most thoughtful and well written post.
Of all the words and strong feelings, this is one that should be listened to.
X

OldCrone maybe not. Also I’m not claiming that gender identity should always outweigh biological sex.

A transman would not have male pattern baldness

I think testosterone can induce this.

So you would call a transman, with a beard and male pattern baldness who's had a phalloplasty a woman then

A transman would not have male pattern baldness

By debating whether they are women or not is essentially asking are they valid as women.

I don't debate this. There's no need.

given the rights of one or the other, treated as one or the other

Human rights are universal.

But in law you are either a man or a woman.

Yes, and in my opinion it was lunacy to make a law that said that people could switch from their correct biological category to the other one.