Dawn Butler’s menopause policies

men get time off for their stuff eg heart problems, sports injuries.

Since when are heart problems and sports injuries "men''s stuff"?

I am a bit torn here as I had bad menopause symptoms. But... just as when I was an adolescent, my natural tendency was to cover up these symptoms, just to show I'm as good as a man. (Yes I would have been diagnosed trans if I was a youngster now).

But still, surely we could have some time off for our stuff, just as men get time off for their stuff eg heart problems, sports injuries.

Maybe women leave work in their 40s/50s because responsibility for caring for elderly parents falls disproportionately on women. And maybe they don't enter the workplace again because ageism - esp against women - is rife. How about tackling that instead of giving ageist and sexist employers yet another reason not to employ older women!

It's from a mainstream UK broadsheet?

Erm ok.

I think if you quote statistics it's not unreasonable to be asked to back them up. Which you can't.
I never said it didn't happen, it was you that was claiming it was commonplace. Without evidence, as it happens.

Well maybe look into it then.

I've known women pack in work a few years before retirement with no obvious reason. Just because you've never heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I can't find where the author gets her figures, apart from a vague 'studies have shown'

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/work/menopause-discrimination-real-thing-bosses-need-get-involved/

2017 telegraph, was just near top when I googled

Part of all this is its still taboo, how many women will be open about saying they are quitting due to menopause, rather than just can't be bothered or something.

On menopause 'Around 3.5 million women aged over 50 years are currently in employment in the UK. Studies have shown that at least of 50% of women have reported as finding work somewhat or fairly difficult due to their symptoms of menopause. Around 10% of women have actually given up work all together as a result of their symptoms.'
with very clear evidence that it is needed due to large numbers leaving work because of it
Could you say where these statistics came from please? It's just that I've never met or heard of a woman that's done this

I have a job and a house. For this reason I don’t think we need to have any social security system whatsoever. People are such snowflakes. They should just get a grip and if they are made homeless it’s their own problem.
I wish there was a party I could vote for full of other straight talkers like moi.

Jilly ....yet another simpleton who thinks that having protections for those who need it (with very clear evidence that it is needed due to large numbers leaving work because of it) means that she will somehow be forced to use them.

I am a menopausal woman. This is pathetic. As if I needed another reason not to vote Labour.

I wish there was a libertarian party that I could vote for. Why have we all come to believe that the fucking government needs to get this involved in our lives?

We are so spoiled and bored and bereft of real struggle in the West in the early 21st century that we are now focusing on the terrible plight of menopausal women at work. Amazing.

The main objection is to the idea that menopause is inevitably a serious medical problem that needs special provisions for everyone that goes through it. Which is not true and is potentially harmful.

Some people fly through pregnancy with few issues; others suffer hyperemesis and so on. Maternity policies mean if you need time off sick, it can't count against you. Menopause policies would mean there's protection for those who need it. If you have a trouble-free menopause, then you would have no need to call on it, but we're not all the same.

Women in general are in the workplace in much higher numbers and for longer than before.

A woman leaving at 55 because of menopause was only missing 5 maybe 10 years work, which was not exactly insignificant, all the time the age you actually stop gets longer so those women miss out more (and were already starting behind as women tend to get paid less and have lower pensions). Poverty for elderly women is a serious issue.

And remember that due to the rise in pension age and other factors, there are more menopausal women in the workplace than ever before
How does raising the pension age do this? The menopause is over by 60?

Issues involve

Women talking about squicky stuff rather than quietly leaving in a dignified way and leaving work for the people who are up to it. Ie men, and women who can fit in well enough in a men's world.

10% of women losing their jobs is fair price to pay
Ditto pregnancy related

I mean it's not an illness fgs if you can't cope then get out the kitchen (or back into the kitchen probs)

V important that society is protected from the unwholesome unpleasantness of female biology. I mean, who wants to hear it!

And unlike the migraine example where a certain age group is more likely than others to have them, ALL women will go through the menopause at some point unless they have a medical condition that means they never had periods.

Migraines are an illness that affects some people. I think they would probably be classed as a disability if they were regular and debilitating. Menopause is a natural process but one that causes quite significant issues for some. There is a lack of understanding about it and lots of lack of sympathy and jokes about hot flushes.

How precisely is it going to affect you if women who need greater protection for something that’s currently causing them to leave their jobs get it?

Yes we got you dreadpirate

We got you the first time

I mean, I really wish there was more knowledge among the general public about migraines, which is not "just a headache" (in my case it comes with visual disturbances and nausea as well as the feeling of a nail pounded through my head), which affects one in seven people, is more common among women, and results in thousands of lost work days across the UK every year. But I don't expect the govt to mandate a special "migraine policy", or to assume that women aged 35 to 45 (the group most susceptible to migraine) might need provision for it.

DreadPirate where has anyone, including Dawn Butler, said that this will be something that all women MUST take part in? It is for women who need the support due to the menopause. Currently there are no specific provisions that relate to the menopause which is why many women choose to just give up work altogether due to symptoms. Nobody will frogmarch you to HR to discuss your symptoms or force you to work reduced hours. It will support women who need it. Same as how having a maternity policy doesn’t force women to have children.

OK well you read it the way you read it, I read it differently and am not the only one.

The idea that women should soldier on and if they can't hack it then get out (which is what some posts on here add up to)

Nobody has said that. Women who need help should get it. Flexible hours are good for a variety of reasons, medical or otherwise. Employers should treat their employees like humans instead of robots. Adequate ventilation and cold water should be available to everyone!

The main objection is to the idea that menopause is inevitably a serious medical problem that needs special provisions for everyone that goes through it. Which is not true and is potentially harmful.

Ffs you don’t need to discuss it with HR. I presume that it doesn’t affect you in a debilitating way either as otherwise you would have little choice but to discuss it. Jesus. Imagine if someone came up with all this shit for protections for disability. I’m alright Jack so everyone else should just suck it up and leave their job if they can’t hack it.

So work remains generally for men,

And for women as long as they can pretend to be and fit in with a man's world,

And if / when something happens that reveals they are, oh god, actually female,

They should quietly leave

To avoid making things difficult for the women who are still able to pretend they are men.

Sounds good.

Maternity and menopause discrimination happen. Sex discrimination too. Thousands of women lose their jobs every year due to pregnancy. 10% of menopausal women quit. These things have real life potentially large financial consequences, and likely others as well eg psychological.

Yet there are women on here saying AOK makes sense, can't go letting on to men at work that we're not just small men with boobs and smaller brains, all the icky biology stuff. Or naturally they'll want us out.

Yeah I thought we were getting beyond all this.