Does lying about contraception make it rape?

That's an interesting way of looking at it @bd67th. And a good way, I think.

Plenty of women have purposefully deceived men into conceiving, I don't think I've ever heard it classified as rape.

This again FFS. Women cannot rape because the law defines rape as a crime committed using a penis. Sexual Offences Act 2003, section 1, look it up yourself because I am sick of posting the link. You might argue that a woman purposefully deceiving a man into fatherhood could be classed as sexual assault, but you cannot argue for that to be rape.

The other aspect of this is that no man ever had a baby or had to have an abortion, both physical consequences to the body with associated risks and harms, after unprotected sex. When a man "stealths" a woman, he puts her at risk of physical harm without her consent. Physical harm is not the same as financial liability for a child.

If you agree to sex because he says he's single but it turns out he's married, is it then rape because you wouldnt have consented if youd known?

Here we are back in the interesting territory of trying to decide if and how to legislate sexual ethics. My view on where to draw the line is that you have sex with a person's body, not their marriage certificate and not their paycheck or their job. So if someone lies about an aspect of their body, e.g. their birth sex, their STI status, or their contraceptive use, I'd consider that as possibly criminal sexual offending although you'd have the difficulty of proving intent. If they catfish you or are a cheater using you as their "bit on the side", that's shitty behaviour but should not be criminal.

I don't think it's rape. Plenty of women have purposefully deceived men into conceiving, I don't think I've ever heard it classified as rape.

However it is something, it's deceptive, horrible , but is it a crime, that's for the courts to decide.

I dont think it should be classed as rape, I think there is enough confusion about what rape actually is in general, and once you start adding beliefs about your partner into the consent process it just gets muddy beyond belief. If you agree to sex because he says he's single but it turns out he's married, is it then rape because you wouldnt have consented if youd known? I dont think it is helpful to go down that path.

If there is going to be a separate offence regarding contraceptive deception then so be it, but it will need to apply to both sexes.

@bd67th yes absolutely, I think it should always be spoken about in a relationship to make sure both sides are on the same page and happy. I take responsibility taking the pill but that's my choice and my partner trusts me, totally get women who don't want to do this in which case the man needs to do his part and be responsible.

@LordRandallXV I also know of quite a few situations where this has happened and it's usually been to try and fix a broken relationship and try to keep the man around when they never wanted a child at that time, they were just trusting their partner, i just could never ever do it to someone I loved!

A vasectomy is different to being on the pill or using a condom because even used properly there is a small failure rate so someone could be on the pill and still get pregnant, which is again different to saying i'm taking the pill when actually they are not or I'll use a condom when actually they don't or they remove it prematurely
with a vasectomy you expect there to be zero chance of getting pregnant so unprotected sex may put you at risk of STD's but not pregnancy
sex with a condom or using the pill still has a tiny risk of pregnancy and doesn't protect against all STD's
so if someone says I've had a vasectomy 2 years ago you might assume zero risk of pregnancy based on that statement however if someone said they were on the pill you would also know that if not taken properly or someone was sick or on antibiotics or even just bad luck there is still a tiny chance of pregnancy so either you take that chance or you use another form of contraception too
lying about sterilisation is worse as it gives a completely false sense of total security but lying about any form of contraception is really bad and undermines trust, you should be able to trust your partner

Questions about whether lying about a vasectomy is rape fall into that wider question of how and if we legislate for sexual ethics.

If I wasn't foolishly posting whilst tired all three of my posts would have been one long one.

If a woman doesn't want to or can't use contraception, she should be honest about it.

The whole thread is about a man doing this though. The big question is, how far can the State legislate to mandate ethical sexual conduct? A cheater puts his/her long-term partner at risk of STIs and doesn't disclose this fact. Does that invalidate the partner's consent?

winterwonderland I initally interpreted "Then you get people say 'well he should of used condom' which shouldn't be the case if your with someone you trust" as meaning that men in established relationships shouldn't have to use condoms because it's the job of the woman to use contraception. This is a stance that I object to very strongly.

I suspect, based on your reply to me, that you actually meant that people should be able to trust their partners not to lie about their contraceptive use. That stance, I agree with wholeheartedly. If a woman doesn't want to or can't use contraception, she should be honest about it.

Both are wrong and deceiving. And I'm saying when a woman LIES and says she's on the pill to trap man, it's disgusting. The only way you could justify this behaviour, is if your the awful type of person who does this. I'm a female who has seen this happen time and time again.

I strongly suspect this happened to a friend of mine. He was dating a girl who was supposedly on the pill but suddenly became pregnant and then almost immediately broke things off. He then bumped into a friend of hers who said something to the effect of 'I'm so happy for her, she's been trying to adopt for ages'. 🤔

He's now paying maintenance for a child he absolutely didn't want, but he loves her to bits and says now that it's the best thing to ever happen to him.

But I still think she was bang out of order.

@bd67th I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Both are wrong and deceiving. And I'm saying when a woman LIES and says she's on the pill to trap man, it's disgusting. The only way you could justify this behaviour, is if your the awful type of person who does this. I'm a female who has seen this happen time and time again.

Then you get people say 'well he should of used condom' which shouldn't be the case if your with someone you trust

Oh dear, this bullshit again.

If he trusts her, it's OK for him to dump the entire burden of contraception onto her? No, it isn't. Why should she take the Pill and quadruple her risk of having a stroke because he "shouldn't" (according to you) have to wear a condom?

I spy, with my little eye, male sexual entitlement in your post.

A vasectomy or being on the pill does not have a bearing on the type of intercourse.

Yes it would. I would be a lot more willing to have unprotected vaginal sex with a man who had a vasectomy than one who didn't. A vasectomy wouldn't affect my view of unprotected oral sex.

But she would have presumably consented to sex with a condom.

The woman in this case did take extra precaution, she took the morning after pill but still ended up pregnant and had to terminate. This is rape because she did not have the ability to consent to the sex due to the deceit. He also knew full well she would not consent in these circumstances.

Then you get people say 'well he should of used condom' which shouldn't be the case if your with someone you trust and well it's the same here she could of took extra precaution.

So you're saying that it's unfair of people to say "well he should of used condom", but the woman in this case "could of took extra precaution". Trying to follow, but can't. PP are saying that it's not right when women do it, either. Both are wrong.

I wouldn't like to see this put in the same category as rape. In general I prefer a fairly clear and maybe some would say restricted way of defining rape. Certainly legally but also in regular conversation. I don't for example like descriptions of anyone being paid for sex as being raped, or talking about a 15 year old being married in the 2nd century as being rape. I think the tendency to class all types of sexual exploitation or wrongdoing as reductive and ultimately it obscures things.

I think the sex with deception description as the most accurate. Though I suspect it would only be something that more extreme examples would be seen in the courts or as a crime. If we rounded up all the people who ever said they were using bc when they weren't I think it would be a large number of people, and a lot of them might even be married.

How's it any different to all the women out there who tell the man they're on the pill/other form of contraception to trap the man into having a baby? It happens all the time. Then you get people say 'well he should of used condom' which shouldn't be the case if your with someone you trust and well it's the same here she could of took extra precaution. Sickens me.

I don't think its rape. It should be a crime, but not rape.

We put a certain amount of trust in our sexual partners. We have to make a judgment call or take responsibility for our own fertility and sexual health.

Taking off a condom is a bit different as that takes place at the time of intercourse. You have made a request about the type of sex you want and he has done it differently and forced an unsheathed penis into you.

A vasectomy or being on the pill does not have a bearing on the type of intercourse. It's a matter of trust violation not bodily violation.

Sorry didn’t see the “forgets to take it” bit..

If a woman deliberately tells a man she is on the pill/implant/contraceptive/sterilised when she isn’t then that is the same as a man saying he’s had a vasectomy if he hasn’t....

Although just read the article and he is a particularly horrible human

Not rape because a woman can’r rape a man in English law. But certainly sexual assault if intent can be shown.
To be clear- intent is obvious in the case under discussion-he deliberately lied about having a vasectomy. He didn’t forget he hadn’t got round to it yet.

Hmm so if a women says she is on the pill but forgets to take it is that rape? After all the man will think she can't get pregnant

This.

It’s tricky. A woman can force a man into having a child he doesn’t want if she deceives him about contraception.

A man can’t force a woman into having a child in quite the same way- she can choose a termination.

If it’s rape for one it should be rape for the other. Chances are it’ll be word against word though so chances of conviction slim?

Hmm so if a women says she is on the pill but forgets to take it is that rape?

That's not deliberate deception, any more than having a condom fail is.

Hmm so if a women says she is on the pill but forgets to take it is that rape? After all the man will think she can't get pregnant