Jeremy Vine- non binary baby

The BBC programme 'No more boys and girls' is relevant here as well.

Short synopsis - male primary school teacher thought he treated all the kids the same. Spoiler warning - not quite true.

IIRC the teacher was open to trying to change things. It would be interesting to see a follow up.

admirable*

For anyone asking what the point of this whole thing is, take a look at where babies' genders were swapped to see how carers treated them differently.

Anyone who thinks that boy should be able to play with dolls and girls should be encouraged to climb etc should really understand that this couple with their gender neutral baby are trying to do just that, and even those with the best intentions can't help speaking to girls and boys differently.

It isn't a pathway to transing the child, its the opposite, its a way to show that any child can play with any toy and be expected to accomplish anything, regardless of their sex/gender (which in babies/small children tends to be the same - gender is obviously bullshit, but I am entertaining the notion of it for the purpose of this debate).

We all know people who compliment little girls on their hair/clothes etc and ask little boys what they've been up to instead. Or people who automatically brush off loud and boisterous behaviour as 'boys will be boys' but expect girls to sit nicely and role play being mummy.

Trying to steer, not only the child, but those around them, into treating the child without stereotypes is admiral in my book.

Of course it won't last past the 'big reveal' when they give in to their friends' curiosity and pull their trousers down, but I say Good luck to them.

This also came up on Loose Women. Very disappointed in Janet S-P who said we should all gleefully embrace the new vocabulary because she broke a doll as a child. Gloria H was getting splinters with it was OK for adults to choose NB but why impose that on a child? Christine L gave a rousing rounding-up of isn't Sam Smith super, brave, marvellous.

Aw cmon Fae is a leading feminist doncha know

🤣🤣🤣

You have to wonder about the thought process of anyone who'd book Jane Fae to represent a given perspective on a news show. Are they trying to undermine that perspective? Because Fae is about as reassuring as a grinning crocodile.

Poor baby, s/he won't get to lie nappy free waggling his/her legs at change time lest some nosy relative notices her/his sex.

These people are a bit mad and a lot cruel in my view. What they are doing isn't progressive, it's damaging. It isn't as if you need to hide your child's sex to dress them how you please or use opposite sex hand me downs. It's not about the baby at all, it's about the parents. It's me, me, me, MMMEEE!

As for this nonsense

Yes I caught Jane Fae advocating for climate change deniers to be prosecuted

This stuff is actually my field by education and a lot of climate activists spout unmitigated shite themselves and frankly aren't much better than the deniers. JF has no clue what JF is on about on this matter and should probably stick to wanking on about the vilest forms of pornography.

How you do this without encountering the Barbara Streisand Effect?

How do you try and keep something like this secret in practice?

What are going to do if your baby takes a shit in its nappy when you are out and there's no baby change nearby? Are you going to let your child sit in its own shit rather than change it in front of your mate?

Or what are you going to do at nursery, when you have to fill in a form. Or you have other children asking questions? Which toilet does the child use? And what happens when another child spots the obvious when your kid leaves the door open? How are you going to handle safeguarding issues with male / female carers?

Or how are you going to deal with it, when a kid comes along and says: "My mummy and daddy say you have to be a girl or boy" and then is a nasty bully and decides to find out what 'they' are?

And how do you deal with the chinese whispers when one parent finds out and tells someone cos you've made such a song and dance about it all?

Or dealing with the annoying old woman in the supermarket you decides to interogate you about your baby (we've all met one at one point, even though its well intentioned) or the old man who thinks its all bullshit and decides to lecture you in the pub?

Honestly, its like these people don't live in the real world and haven't really thought it all through.

Its not that hard to make the point that you don't want gender stereotyped clothes and toys, and being able to explain this to friends and family in a way which isn't going to make others think you are being utterly ridicilous. You might actually get more people on board too, cos its hardly an idea that other parents can get on board with after the fact...

I can't believe that anyone takes this seriously and indulges this lunacy. All you do is get everyone around you desparate to find out the secret to get one over on you or to be 'in on the secret'.

How is the treatment of that better than them being subject to the stereotypes of gender? Its just replaced by another type of stereotyping anyway.

And I do ask what the ultimate purpose of this is? What happens if your child does identity as the 'wrong gender', does this mean you are going to fast track them to transition before puberty when the secret will come out once and for all? At some point if they do hit puberty they are going to have to deal with those stereotypes and live as the sex they are born otherwise. What exactly is the ultimate purpose of this? And there lies another whole can of worms.

I do not get what the point is.

Other than the parents using the child to virtue signal their political views to others without the child's consent.

It's fucking bananas. And quite insulting. Say I am a particular race, and that race has certain assumptions made about it. For example, I'm Brown and everyone assumes I'm Muslim. Sometimes that's a neutral assumption ( like when I'm having a glass of wine with work colleagues and I'm asked if I'm allowed to!) And sometimes it's negative (do I have a bomb strapped to me?) Does that mean I should somehow conceal my race in case of what others might think??
I hate all this pretend there are not two sexes shite. I'm proud of my sex and proud of my woman's body and I would expect any child to feel proud of their body (and certainly not ashamed). It's so damaging to this baby, the idea that she or he has something to hide. It is for other people to learn and adjust not be be biased and that can happen when they see a woman or a man do the the unexpected, not when we hide who we are.

I don't really think gendered clothing is that big a deal, as long as we don't make it so. Some clothes are really better suited to the female form, for instance, the sari. I think most men do look a bit ridiculous in dresses, but that might only be my conditioning. I tend to like men in suits, women in gowns, on formal occasions. I don't think it's that big a deal.

Yes, this is it. I don't think the idea of doing away with some type of gendered clothing would work well. It's sort of Maoist-type experimentation, and people don't seem to respond very well to it. People know they are two sexes and not only that, they are really interested in the fact that they are two sexes. I don't think that is something we can extinguish, it will come out one way or another, an expression of that sexed reality.

You can't even be counter-cultural or a gender bender if you don't have some kind of cultural sense of what is masculine or feminine.

@theJeremyVine @JeremyVineOn5 @Vine_Watch [email protected]

Only caught the last bit but on his @BBCR2 show talking to Sinead, a "non-binary" AFAB (sic).
"Fascinating. As the father of two young daughters ...", you should know that Sinead rejecting gender roles, stereotypes and restrictions is GENDER CRITICAL not "non-binary". Nobody is neither sex, nobody can change sex, "they" is still female and wanting to abolish "gender" (she cites Miss/Mrs/Ms) makes her GENDER CRITICAL, which is a radical-feminist viewpoint, not NB. Trans people relish and uphold those stereotypes (see the Mermaids stick person "spectrum") and switch from one extreme to the other.

CAN PEOPLE PLEASE TWEET OR EMAIL HIM WITH SCREENSHOTS, LINKS & PHOTOS ETC BECAUSE, "as the father of two young daughters", he needs to know that intact males like the naked-erection-tiddies-selfie one in the women's rape shelter in Canada "identifying" as females will be undressing and showering and tackling his little girls.

I wonder what other beliefs Jane would like to prosecute people for holding?

Indeed. And it's interesting that Jane Fae thinks that people should not be allowed to question climate change, but should be absolutely free to write and distribute explicit pornography detailing the decapitation and dismemberment of an actual real woman.

Yes Jane Fae quotes science as evidence for prosecuting climate change deniers. Is this the same science that Jane Fae denies when it comes to their own biology?
I’m going to have to switch off now, my blood pressure can’t take anymore today.

...that are really benign in most cases, are part of the way children come to understand the world. I mean, social roles probably works as well in places where it is relevant, but I'd rather have little kids wearing different coloured shirts than make an issue out of male and female social roles.

I don't really think gendered clothing is that big a deal, as long as we don't make it so. Some clothes are really better suited to the female form, for instance, the sari. I think most men do look a bit ridiculous in dresses, but that might only be my conditioning. I tend to like men in suits, women in gowns, on formal occasions. I don't think it's that big a deal.

Yes I caught Jane Fae advocating for climate change deniers to be prosecuted

I wonder what other beliefs Jane would like to prosecute people for holding?

For a person who is all about freedom of expression when it comes to pornography, Jane is remarkably restrictive about the freedom of others on different subjects

I'd call everyone 'thing' and 'it'. The French would have a bugger of a time.

This would work in German, as there truly is a neutral gender, sometimes applied to humans, as in das Maedchen, the girl.
Nothing to be offended about. The suffix "-chen" is always neutral.

I grew up in a big family. It was first up best dressed. Equal number of boys & girls.

My parents must have been conducting an experiment in gender without realizing.

I wish OPs would say a bit more than "is anyone watching"! Not all of us are UK based, not all of us are capable of tuning it at a given time.
I was able to follow what it was about due to the following posts, but in future, a little more explicit maybe!
Today I've been "exploring" the concept of "theybies".
www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/6052816/parents-refuse-tell-people-theyby-boy-or-girl/

Our favourite extreme porn advocate is on now.

As he said 'so they dress the child as a girl one day and as a boy the next... to break down gender stereotypes? Uhuh, big fall at the first hurdle then...'

My friend's sister and her partner ask their child every day whether it wants to identify as a boy or girl. I am really wondering how this poor child is going to develop a sense of who she is and where she fits in.

Watching this, and other things, I have actually become less inclined to be against clothing with gender associations. Not that I think it should be over the top, and I think it needs to be practical and comfortable, but I am increasinly inclined to think that some external expressions like pronouns or clothing differences, or other things that are really benign in most cases, are part of the way children come to understand the world. I mean, social roles probably works as well in places where it is relevant, but I'd rather have little kids wearing different coloured shirts than make an issue out of male and female social roles.

To be fair, there is a lot of psychological research to show how some people treat boy and girl babies differently when there is absolutely no need to do so. So I don't think hiding a baby's sex for a while is an issue, except for being vastly tedious to other people, up until the point that the child is developmentally starting to understand the concept of boys and girls, which isn't very old at all. At this point I think the psychological harm to the child of all the secrecy which it won't be able to make head nor tail of will quickly and easily outweigh the benefits of not being gender stereotyped by random others.

The secrecy is all doomed to failure pretty early on anyway too.

They don't want people who interact with the baby to do that "pretty girl/ big strong boy" stuff that has been well documented in the past, and say that if nobody knows whether Anush is a boy or a girl they won't have that automatic bias to treat them differently.

Several things will happen though, because we really can't control what others do (much as we might like to)

-many people will make assumptions about the child's sex and the older the child is, the more likely it is that the assumptions are correct

-people will also make assumptions about the parents and this kind of controlling behaviour is not conducive to good social interactions

• there are also numerous trust issues in play, but if they keep this up after the age of eight, the age when children get single-sex facilities, the rights and needs of other children may be negatively impacted by this child

-from what I've seen, not a few kids in this kind of situation eventually rebel against their parents and end up resenting them for marginalising them like that

If you want to resist the insidious consequences of gender stereotyping, you teach your children from a very young age that apart from very few biological functions, your sex does not dictate what you do, wear, play with or like. And the older you get, the more you teach them about that. In the meantime, you parent accordingly.

One does not defeat an enemy by pretending it doesn't exist, but by facing up to it, learning all about it and then taking it on.

I'd call everyone 'thing' and 'it'. The French would have a bugger of a time.

Just thinking out loud. What if we lose the he / she him,/her 'label' for all of us ?

Are these the circus people? DH was chortling about this over breakfast (so I guess it was in the Times then?).

As he said 'so they dress the child as a girl one day and as a boy the next... to break down gender stereotypes? Uhuh, big fall at the first hurdle then...'

I think that poor kid will be the first one in history to run away from the circus to join an accountancy firm...