Margaret Atwood defends women's right to work in strip clubs because she thinks it's 'empowering'

I once had a dance off a male stripper at a hen do. Wouldn't have turned up for something like that myself, but the whole dance happened without injury to me.
So it's possible for men to lap dance/ perform one to one for women (he didn't sit on me though!).

Therefore, there must be another reason why it's women who are objectified & commodified at scale. Some women working in high end places feel empowered by the money, but it's all feeding into the view of women that leads to harassment, at one end of the scale, & rape and trafficking at the other. It's not feminism to pretend otherwise.

Just bear in mind there’s nothing the patriarchy welcomes more than its underclass ripping one another’s throats out.

(Pressed send to soon)

While we’re stuck out here with the arseholes

Not empowerment so much as #winningatpatriarchy and #suckstobeyou

Which is about as unliberating for women as it gets.

Perhaps @Iggi999 all the good men are in strip clubs supporting the empowerment of the women working there

If a pimp or club owner wanted to push some propaganda about how empowerfulising and profitable stripping was, and how trafficking and abuse was a complete myth, how many posts would it take before some nuggets of misogyny accidentally slipped out directed at the women countering his bullshit?
How long might such a person be able to stay in character, I wonder?

#saggytits

It seems quite surprising if the number of women working in strip clubs who have bad experiences with men is a "tiny, tiny" number, given that the number of women in general who have bad experiences with male violence is so large.

Very interesting that the poster putting forth the pov that Atwood is correct and this is empowering:

• has shown zero respect for other women and is actively putting them down in many of their posts
• has shown zero empathy for other women in their posts
• has shown agist beliefs and body shaming to other women in their posts
• tells women sharing their experiences that their experiences are wrong or they're lying

Nuff said really.

Although the Courtney diversion/derail is as interesting and fun as it is predictable, I don't understand why anyone is surprised by Atwood's comments. She's always careful to present herself as 'not a feminist' or 'not that type of feminist'. She's a male-pleasing, socially acceptable feminist. The Handmaid's Tale isn't a feminist text imo (and tbh in the opinions of a lot of people in my feminist book group). I've bought The Testaments because I want to see if her position has changed but I doubt it.

ThePankhurstConnection

I have a dear friend who worked as a model, stripper, dancer for many years, in the US. She is thoughtful, brave and highly intelligent. She has written eloquently and extensively on the subject - the good parts and the bad parts. I have learned a lot from her - I'm not anti-stripping, fwiw.

I strongly suspect she would call bullshit on you, Courtney. But I'm glad you're having so much fun.

It would be great to hear from other women who've been involved in this industry. Because obviously it is a complex topic with lots and lots of different experiences, and no one person can claim to speak for all the women who've been part of it.

But all Mumsnetters have two degrees. Often one of them is from Oxbridge. Or they left school at 15 with no qualifications and are now running their own incredibly profitable business.

If - God forbid - Courtney's tits ever do succumb to gravity, I believe Katie Hopkins might have left a vacancy for a columnist somewhere?

Courtney you haven’t half made me laugh this morning . Not one degree but two, started your PhD yet?
Are you going to give us a paragraph about how you all have sleepovers ,cos you know, it’s so much fun and you develop such a great bond with other women when you’re taking your kit off for grubby money.
👏🏼 For the ‘tripe ’ you’ve invented on this thread, doing a sterling job putting those pesky feminists straight 🤣

Which I'm telling you, is what 99% of dancers will tell you

What research is that based on, exactly?

@NotTonightJosepheen

I agree with everything you have posted

Oh, Courtney, I know you would love to characterise all the women who oppose your views on stripping as ugly, saggy-titted harridans who would jump at the chance of getting their kit off and sitting on a random man's lap for a few quid if only they could...

Again no. Not what I've said once. It's what the women like you, who peddle this tripe to us have to invent because you can't argue with our genuine experience. But you can invent stuff we don't say and argue with that. It's kind of all you can do.

Then claim you're supporting women. Laughable. And really, really sad that you've got nothing better to do. Although the stereotype you're creating yourself, you aren't half playing straight into it.

Perhaps have a look at the quote about playing chess with a pigeon. Stick with your flock

This thread is getting heated - this song is for the happy strippers on here

Is there a sort of klaxon that sounds somewhere every time this topic comes up to summon a degree educated Happy Dancer/Stripper?

You can read from this thread other women who have not had an empowering experience. Their lived experience is just as valid as yours.

Not really. An American bar maid for a year didn't like it. That's about as relevant as the receptionist in the accountancy office complaining about her "struggles" in the accountancy world and speaking on behalf of accountants about how awful our job is.

And yes, there will be people who've had bad experiences. I've already acknowledged that. But please gloss over that too. And these are the tiny tiny tiny minority. And the only thing ever reported or published.

Look at the pathetic responses on this thread at my experience. Which I'm telling you, is what 99% of dancers will tell you. We love our jobs. No one touches us. No one exploits us. We have a great time. But you can't accept that, can you

@NotTonightJosepheen

Just because other women don't agree with these so called attractive strippers - they think we are saggy and ugly I am lolling now

You are the expert on your own experience, but I don't think you should dismiss the many differing accounts as hysterical journalism flowing from the pens of unattractive middle-aged women.

Look Bitoffun don't go dismissing Courtney like that. She's right. I worked in all the lap dancing clubs while I earned my 12 doctorates and it was like being at a theme park every night, this was only hampered when the OLD, ugly women in their 40s and 50s came in (for hen nights no less) and they were mean to me because I was so sexy and be-a-u-tiful and they were jealous cream cake eating, dried up hags working middle management jobs rather than making a living partying with their besties like me. They just didn't want their men giving the money they earned out of their silly family's mouths to me so I could spend it on more degrees. So jealous of how I could manipulate their useless husbands. And the men were silly but you know always kind never tried it on or got aggressive (btw such a fantasy that idea of male violence feminists are such story tellers) one even covered a puddle of champers with his suit jacket for me to step on so I didn't dirty my sparkly stilettos. I expect their old, middle-management wives didn't get that treatment so no wonder they were so salty. Anyway I didn't see anyone 'trafficked' from another country, honestly I think the whole trafficking thing is a myth because I have never seen it, not once in all the many clubs I have twirled in all over the world.

No wonder no one comes to this board anymore, silly, feminists peddling their vicious lies, denying women the ability to use their bodies how they see fit. Honestly if I want men to perve over me I should just be allowed to even if it does make the surrounding area more dangerous for any women walking around or perpetuates the objectification of women and girls. After all those girls could aspire to be just like me.

I know more about it all of this than ANY of you (because I know exactly what all your experiences are and they aren't like mine so mine should have far more credence) or any of the numerous women who have given their accounts over the years in books, media and academic work - they were ALL lying btw. I am even au fait with the working of clubs the world over. It's just envy that someone like me can make it in this world for so many years while they grow old and wrinkly oh and fat, don't forget fat.

Anyway I'm working later so I best catch up on my beauty sleep after I bathe in oil of Olay (don't want to get old y'all, like you feminists). It's a good job I don't age like everyone else or I might have had to fall back on one of those doctorates and do something boring rather than party in the best industry which prizes women only for their appearance.

Courtney you go girl. Girl power and all that. Ignore these women not one of them knows the truth like we do. Empowerment rocks!!!

How can taking your clothes off for men to look at be empowering

Because it's not. Howsabout reading my first post on the first page telling you exactly what's empowering. Or, like everyone else. Gloss over that so you can keep coming out with this rubbish.

It’s like the only thing that you have as power is your body for men to look at

Again. I can keep spelling it out. And you'll all choose to deliberately ignore it. And then Sarah the plumber who's never been a dancer or in a club (but she's read the papers don't you know )will dictate to the people who actually do the job "You think you're empowered because you're naked. Yes. That's it. I know. Consider yourself told."

Just think how stupid that is out loud. Like what we find empowering is hurling our pants to the floor in some "ta daaaaaaaaàaa" moment. That's the only "power we have". Jesus Christ.

I really don’t get that

You don't have too. Because it doesn't matter how repeatedly, coherently, loudly, you'll have dancers tell you how it is. You'll have every fake feminist scoffing at the truth and hunting down anything to support their own opinions.

And anyway. Shame on you, Margaret Atwood.