I'm going to a talk by Alice Roberts tomorrow, what should I ask her?

Ask her why, asking questions about gaps in scientific knowledge is a bad thing that should be discouraged and whether it is important that we explore the ethics of medicalisation properly?

Why don't women in developing countries who face child marriage/FGM/sex trafficking etc just identify as men?

Great point XXcstatic. One of the things that really irritates me when Sally Hines says it is so old fashioned to differentiate between sex and gender is that there are still so many countries in the world where it is only about sex. I don’t think a man who said he identified as a woman would be married off, deprived of property etc.

None of that proves that someone is 'in the wrong body'.

All it says is that some people have discomfort with their bodies. Which we haven't got to the bottom of the question of 'why'.

That's the crux of it, isn't it, Red. I'm always reminded of the neuroscientist who identified the region of the brain that seems to be active during religious experiences. He was very careful to say "this doesn't say anything at all one way or the other about whether there is a god."

If you were an atheist, you'd point to that region and say "aha, that shows the region that's active during delusions"; if you were a theist you'd say "this is the region of the brain that enables us to experience the presence of the divine." The philosophical interpretation is bolted on after the fact.

Likewise even if someone were to identify a "brain region" associated with gender dysphoria, it would be just that, a brain region associated with dysphoria. It wouldn't tell you that this meant that this was a "woman's brain" in a "man's body" or vice versa. (Incidentally, the paper everyone on the TRA side points to as establishing that there is such a region is a pile of crap - tiny sample size, distinctly dodgy looking completely absent quality control on the data - at least 2 of the data points look like they were sample errors, and another is such an outlier that it left me wondering if they'd calculated their statistical significance correctly...)

As Alice might be reading:

I'm a left-leaning MSc mother. Not right wing. Not a bigot.

Another question I would have is why encourage people to cosmetically change their bodies in this era when one of the major concerns from medicine is the antibiotic resistance is growing. Soon we may get to the point where even essential operations cannot be had so to encourage people to surgically alter themselves to try and resemble the opposite sex seems cruel and unthinking.

Ask her if the suffragettes should have been nicer.

I hope Alice reads the Trans Widows Threads...

Good, I'm glad Alice has seen this. The sad thing is that before all this, many of us were fans, but there's nothing like an evidence-free statement calling you far-right to put you off a person.

None of that proves that someone is 'in the wrong body'.

All it says is that some people have discomfort with their bodies. Which we haven't got to the bottom of the question of 'why'.

It certainly does not prove that people can change sex. They still are either male or female.

The treatment for dsyphoria is just pro-cosmetic surgery, and there a hell of a lot of bad science and propaganda around that for financial reasons.

We've also got an absence of information about the long term success of medical intervention for people who transition as children. We have an absence of information about ROGD and whether that is the same as late transitioning.

Thats just a very quick think off the top of my head.

Honestly, you'd think that everyone had forgotten that one of the fundamental rules of researching is to explore weaknesses in studies in terms of methodology, look for gaps in understanding and knowledge and seek to explore them and to understand the pitfuls of ideological bias.

If you can tell from a skeleton a hundred years old whether that person was male or female why isn't that enough to decide whether a living person is male or female?

Our new friend is a multiple PBP - only ever comes on to goad and troll. Usually aimed at one long-term mumsnetter whom they seem to have a fixation with. It's a bit embarrassing for them (the troll, that is), really. Just sayin'.

(and what do you think about the penguin).

Oh good, since you're reading, Alice, please can you tell me what people mean when they say sex is a spectrum? Thanks.

Also what relevance intersex conditions have to trans issues, when most trans people appear to be genotypically and phenotypically normal members of their birth sex, and (in the case of late transitioning male born trans people) often seem to have managed to father several children quite successfully before transitioning.

AR has just posted a link to this thread.

Oh good, she can do a MN Chat then and respond to all the questions here.

Unless she's just a coward who doesn't want to use science, to explain her blantantly non scientific beliefs, whilst she tries to pass them off as science simply by shouting 'bigot' instead.

Either the science holds up, or it does not.

AR has just posted a link to this thread.

Bit covert passive aggressive there, Alice!

"Ask her why so many women and men (anti trans anti-social weirdos) who profess to care about women in stem are abusing her like rabid lunatics, and dismissing her obvious intelligence, ask her that."

@theyputagpinthewater citation needed.

Have any GC feminists told her to "die in a grease fire"? Have any tweeted her pictures of knives, bats, bloody clothing? Have any GC feminists sent her porn as an act of aggression? Or have they just challenged her on the evidence, which is what happens in science?

I am absolutely sure, @theyputagpinthewater, that you go on other forums to tell off "rabid lunatic" TRAs who post all the above, plus rape threats and death threats, to women who have a different opinion to them. And if you don't, why not?

On Twitter.

AR has just posted a link to this thread.

So if the debate is about conforming to society's version of the perfect body and presumably she is against that then maybe try and tie-in why she feels that somebody who feels like they are trapped in the wrong body should be encouraged to have cosmetic surgery to alter it. When presumably she wouldn't recommend somebody who feels like they are trapped in an inferior body should have cosmetic surgery to bring it up to the required standard imposed by society.

If its not a talk about trans issues, then I just think its shitty.

Stuff and nonsense.

This woman is one of the country's most prominent science communicators. She's sharing anti-science woo on social media and behaving like a spoiled child when this is pointed out to her.

She's in a position of trust and is well paid for it - often by public institutions. With this comes a significant degree of public accountability.

Why don't women in developing countries who face child marriage/FGM/sex trafficking etc just identify as men?