Seahorse BBC2 now

It was basically saying that testosterone is perfectly safe and it's just scaremongering by anti trans ppl to suggest otherwise.

Freddie was on sky news today. Did anyone see it? Gave me the rage.

Definitions are important for understanding.

Woman has baby by donor sperm - defined as mother. The sperm donor has fathered a child but is not performing the role of father. If she is in a relationship with a man does he go on birth certificate? Is it defined that he is not genetic father? Should it be? What if it is donor egg and donor sperm?

Above woman in lesbian relationship, both performing the role of mother. Both on birth certificate to have equal responsibility to the child they both wanted. Presumably the birth certificate defines genetic mother? I don’t know. What if the egg was from the parent who did not carry the baby? Is that defined? And if not should it be?

Woman carries baby (donor egg) for 2 men. What is she? Both men are performing the role of father, but she’s not the genetic mother but has given birth. Both are performing the role of father. They might have chosen not to know who is the genetic father, is that defined as such on the birth certificate? Does the child have the right to know who is genetic father?

And then you consider that it’s only since dna testing became commonplace/affordable that anyone was really able to know who their genetic parents are, as you don’t actually know who gave birth to you or who provided the sperm so birth certificates were not guaranteed to be accurate anyway, obviously less likely to be fabricated for the genetic mother but the genetic father could be incorrect.

It possibly needs to be split between a certificate of genetic heritage (still not sure where a surrogate with donor egg would be defined here) and a certificate of parental responsibility. Which would possibly if it was standard for all children born fit Freddie’s desire to be named as father while still retaining the genetic information for the child for medical purposes, knowing own heritage or avoiding procreating with your sibling purposes. I’m sure there are other reasons why it is important that I’m not currently coming up with.

Being pregnant changes you, physically and emotionally. Giving birth does the same. Being an involved caregiver to a child changes you, brains change, hormone levels change whether you are genetically mother/father or not.

I think the whole birth certificate model needs updating to take into account modern fertility interventions and parental responsibility of the people bringing up the child.

Should Freddie be able with the current model to say the child has father only? No because it doesn’t fit with the surrounding law. Pregnancy should be a protected characteristic independent of gender identity. Breast feeding should be protected independently of gender identity.

If sex and gender were defined legally as two separate things this wouldn’t be necessary, but they aren’t. The law is a mess.

I hope Freddie and Freddie’s child find their way and are happy. Fundamentally, only women have eggs, only women are pregnant and only women give birth. It’s a female body process not a feminine one. Do any of those make you a mother? I’m not sure, I’m not sure what would fit. Adopted adults can visibly struggle with how to describe genetic mother versus mother/adoptive mother, the language available is emotionally fraught. I’m not sure how it could be defined without new language though. Look at the outcry on here where a step parent refers to a child mother as birth mother because birth mother is understood to mean person who relinquished the child - language matters.

Mothering makes you a mother, parenting makes you a parent. Its an active process. Transman gave birth - accurate. Man gave birth - not accurate.

I’ve just watched this, I found rather sad by the end. I just really felt that I wished Freddie happiness, it won’t be easy. He seemed relatable and pretty human. I made not understand him at all, but I hope it works out.

I confess I have not RTFT but just wanted to add that aside from the question of whether birth certificates reflect fact or fiction, birth certificates also confer a degree of legal responsibility, and this I believe was primarily the driving force behind lesbians (and gay men?) wanting to get both parents named on the birth certificates of their children (done as Mother and Other Parent). Without that legal protection, originally the birth mother would have to give up the child for adoption, then the couple would adopt it back as a couple; this was then changed to allow the non-gestational partner to adopt as a step parent without the need for birth mother to relinquish rights, and finally to the situation we have now where if married, or if conceiving through a clinic, then both partners can be named as parents on the birth certificate (think this is still the case, but I may now be out of date).

Without that degree of legal protection, non-gestational parents were left incredibly vulnerable in cases of relationship breakdown, serious illness or death of BM, where they could be cut out of a child's life very easily.

This change was, to my mind, potentially beneficial to the child.

What Freddie is attempting to do is nothing of the sort. The change they are fighting to have made serves only themselves, using the child as a means of bolstering their identity. More broadly, I too have concerns about the wider and murkier agenda behind such a move.

Complaining to the BBC about a BBC show is useless.

points of view

Women's sympathy is used against them time after time.
There are a million ways to cut a documentary, and this is designed to draw out that sympathy.
Think of the timeline: GRC >>>11days>>>fertility clinic>>>>High Court. The film deal was agreed at some point beforehand.
The post attached says it best.

Clearly you don’t believe that he should be allowed to do that, which is up to you, but pretending that ‘mother’ doesn’t have meanings other than ‘has given birth to a baby using her uterus’ is very odd to me

I'm not pretending anything; including that women can become men, and that birth mothers are in fact fathers. Now that is odd indeed.

Exactly FWRLurker

Giving birth isn't about femininity. Giving birth is about being female.

Freddie is female. Not feminine.

*All women who have given birth are mothers. Not all mothers are women who have given birth.

Freddy is a woman who has given birth. Freddy is a mother.*

Well said, OldCrone.

it is also a word that has many other uses, and different layers of meaning and is deeply connected to ideas about both femininity and what it means to be a woman In society. As much as you keep saying it’s a neutral scientific term simply related to the existence of ovaries and a uterus, it isn’t, and will never be.

Uh I disagree. Isn’t the point of feminism to CHALLENGE sexist stereotypes about what it means to be a woman, not to roll over and capitulate to them?

I certainly don’t identify with any nonsense about femininity but I nevertheless am a mother (which is a female parent). I reject the rest of the sexist nonsense that bigots attach to the words woman, female, mother, etc.

All that Freddy need do is the same. Reject the baggage. Embrace reality. Freddy, You are a mother. One who happens to take testosterone and had a double mastectomy due to body image issues.

The stupid thing is the word mother on the child's birth certificate is probably the least significant part of this process in regards to what makes Freddie a mother.

Which is why I think the motive is deliberate and political. It's to remove any connection between women and their biology. So that sexism, based on biology, cannot be recognised.

The stupid thing is the word mother on the child's birth certificate is probably the least significant part of this process in regards to what makes Freddie a mother.

If Freddie didn't want to be a mother, he shouldn't have grown a baby in his womb and given birth to that child from his vagina. He should have become a parent through alternative methods, then he could refer to himself as father as much as he wants.

butimacheerleader

I'm not sure I understand your point. You're saying there are different ways, other than biological, that a woman can be a mother.

Freddie is a biological mother.

In order to understand your argument, what criteria is Freddy fulfilling in order to be considered a father? To you.

Mother’ is a term used for women who have given birth to a baby, but it is also a word that has many other uses, and different layers of meaning and is deeply connected to ideas about both femininity and what it means to be a woman In society

All women who have given birth are mothers. Not all mothers are women who have given birth.

Freddy is a woman who has given birth. Freddy is a mother.

"Only women give birth. Some women who haven't give birth are also mothers but the word for the collective group of women who have carried babies is mothers."

Some people are as equally certain as you are there that a lesbian partner of a woman that has given birth is not a mother, or not a 'real' mother. You may think they're wrong; I think you're wrong. That's because mother is not a neutral term simply describing biology.

The first consideration here should be the best interests of freddy’s child. I cannot conceive of any circumstances in which a child being pressed into validation of a parents gender identity could be in the interests of that child. This is being done solely to serve the needs of the parent and it was perfectly clear from the programme that Freddy is not willing to entertain the idea that their child’s interests are a consideration in this.
The selfishness disgusts me.

but - Freddy can call themselves the Dalai Lama for all I care. Freddy's child's birth certificate though belongs to the child, not to Freddy. Only women give birth. Some women who haven't give birth are also mothers but the word for the collective group of women who have carried babies is mothers.

Mother’ is a term used for women who have given birth to a baby, but it is also a word that has many other uses, and different layers of meaning and is deeply connected to ideas about both femininity and what it means to be a woman In society

I completely agree. But never does mother pertain to a male.

Freddy is female so they cannot be a father.

That weird link I posted from my iPad yesterday has expired. Here's the article where Freddy argues that medical professionals telling women that taking testosterone is likely to destroy their fertility is 'de facto sterilisation' of trans people

news.sky.com/story/freddy-mcconnell-transgender-man-who-gave-birth-hits-out-at-de-facto-sterilisation-11805739

“Requiring a mother to be female is a narrow definition?”

No, requiring a mother to have given birth is a narrow definition.

“Women who are parents are mothers. Freddy is female and a parent so is a mother.”

You say that as if it’s really obvious and accepted by everyone but non-birth mothers in lesbian couples spend a lot of time asserting and negotiating their right and wish to be to be a mother (not everyone does, obviously), against systems that are set up not to recognise them, internalised beliefs about what a mother should be and in some cases outright hostility and discrimination.

“The word says nothing of personality, has no value judgement to make on feelings, on masculinity, on femininity. It's ONLY the word for our bodies and the act of creation we've both done with them.”

That is clearly not true. ‘Mother’ is a term used for women who have given birth to a baby, but it is also a word that has many other uses, and different layers of meaning and is deeply connected to ideas about both femininity and what it means to be a woman In society. As much as you keep saying it’s a neutral scientific term simply related to the existence of ovaries and a uterus, it isn’t, and will never be.

“So, if mother, according to you, is an expansive and wide ranging term for acts of nurture”

It’s not just ‘according to me’ – it is used in that way, but it is also connected to womanhood. Freddy is a trans man, so he would prefer to use father. Other people would prefer to refer to a ‘parent who has given birth’ on official documents, whilst being free to choose whatever term they like in daily life. Clearly you don’t believe that he should be allowed to do that, which is up to you, but pretending that ‘mother’ doesn’t have meanings other than ‘has given birth to a baby using her uterus’ is very odd to me.

I entirely agree sally.
It is high time someone sat this individual down to make the understand ITS NOT ALL ABOUT YOU.
I suspect Dad may have tried this, hence his exclusion from the hallowed circle.

So girls who go on puberty blockers at 11 and then take cross-sex hormones will think that they will still be able to have children.

So often, experiences of people who have transitioned as adults are used to tell lies and falsely apply those experiences to children who receive puberty blockers and cross sex hormones:

“People can still have babies”. Not if they’ve been on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones and haven’t done any form of fertility preservation.

“People can still enjoy sex”. Not if their genitalia has never been allowed to reach sexual maturity from puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.

“Only a tiny percentage experience regret”. That’s a study of adults who went through puberty first before deciding on gonadectomy, it’s not study on regret of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.

I think people think we are stupid and won’t see through the lies. We just need to remain vocal so those vulnerable people will see through it too.

Freddy is now also saying that one of his aims is to demonstrate that testosterone doesn't damage women's fertility.

What a disgusting reason to have a baby. It's not a political tool. It's a child.