Big change in Germany's prostitution law: Nordic Model gets parliamentary majority

I understand why people might consider decriminalisation as a possibility. It tries to avoid making it an overt part of the market that capitalists can use to prosper, or getting the state used to the tax revenue. While at the same time it hopes to prevent problems that criminalisation can cause. If you think it is probably impossible to totally eradicate it (likely true,) but prostitutes are hesitant to get help, or work secretly in unsafe places because they fear the law or being prevented from working, it seems like a reasonable idea. It also has some similarities to harm reduction strategies which can work well in other sectors.

There may even be places where it is the best option, I don't know that the same laws always work the same way in all countries, there can be differences that mean some approaches to social problems aren't equally effective everywhere.

But I think there is a fair bit of evidence to show that it still doesn't have great outcomes and if there are options that could be more effective they should be seriously considered.

'Decriminalisation treats it as though it is any other valid form of employment without all the punitive measures.'

???

Health and safety at work
Responsibilty of employer towards employee
No discrimination against potential employees on grounds of sex, age, looks etc

Hahaha

I take note of what sex workers are calling for

It is legalised in Germany. It hasn’t been decriminalised. Legalisation leads to licenses, enforced health checks, prohibition on when and where you can work ... that only the wealthy can afford. Hence the large brothels and their owners. Decriminalisation treats it as though it is any other valid form of employment without all the punitive measures.

If you listen to what sex workers really want

That's what is now starting to happen in Germany where many if not all of the prostitutes-turned-campaigners who were pivotal in achieving decriminalisation have admitted that they got it terribly wrong, that it made everything worse by whatever measure you look at it.

If you ever want to weigh up which model to choose, I suggest looking at what pimps and punters are clamouring for and which one they vehemently oppose and then support the latter.

We've seen time and again that the model championed by those who profit from selling women's bodies does not benefit those women.

Fraggling - that word fairly leaps off the page 🤔

I don’t support the Nordic model. Violence against sex workers has increased under this model as the ladies can no longer screen clients they take greater risks.

You are spreading a lie invented by pimps and johns in a doomed attempt to discredit the Nordic model.

The truth, backed up by tons of Swedish statistical information, is that violence against prostituted women fell like a stone as soon as street prostitution dried up, and there has been no evidence of any increase in harm. In fact the exact opposite is true.

Sexual health has improved (including the health of the wives and girlfriends who were unknowingly being exposed to sexual diseases by their male partners who gladly paid extra for street sex without a condom.).

Trafficking of women and girls for sexual slavery, which was a problem in Sweden before the law was passed, has ceased. It is more trouble than it is worth to the traffickers, because the same victims can be hidden in plain sight in German mega brothels.

www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k2609/rr-0

Educate yourself, or stop pretending that you give a shite about women and girls being treated as a commodity by soulless, entitled men.

Thats good to hear Charlie.

It doesn't chime with men I know in uk though who are (were when younger) AOK with buying sex when on holiday / stags. When inhibitions were down and it was the 'normal' thing to do.

That's the point about normalisation. Smoking was normalised at great effort by tobacco companies, years ago. Now, socially unacceptable. More or less.

If a man can pay a few quid for a blow job in a decent looking place, and this is the norm, why wouldn't he?

Question is, what does that mean for women, girls, society.

Yes it is legal.
We fall somewhere in the middle.
It's legal to buy and sell sex. But brothels are illegal.

If you want it safe then you want it legalised. And to meet health and safety laws etc.

(although there's one on a high street near me that is totally blatant).

There is no social acceptability for prostitution in Germany. Large numbers of people, both male and female, are upset with the current laws and especially how they worked out in practice.

Claims of how many men (percentagewise) are punters are many, actual proof and empirical data is extremely scarce. One rare scientific study put it at 8% of men recently, the highest I've seen was 18% but that was published 25 years ago and the data was even older.

Worldwide, the percentage of men who buy sex has been decreasing steadily, but even if one assumes that 18% of German men were a likely maximum even today, that leaves 82% of men who do not.

Whether it is 82% or 92% of men, the fact is that the vast majority of men in Germany (and elsewhere) are not punters. The assumption that prostitution in Germany is socially acceptable just because lawmakers decriminalized it is unfounded. The stigma is as strong as it has always been and public opinion has worsened because of the sheer horror people feel at the consequences of the law change.

The ladies is an is odd turn of phrase for fwr.

Just mentioning.

Well in most of the UK it’s already legal. The issue is that women cannot legally work together. What other job would prohibit you from working in a safer environment!

Violence against sex workers has increased under this model as the ladies can no longer screen clients they take greater risks

I'm very sceptical about the veracity of this statement.

You need to think about why decrim is pushed for and not legalisation.

I don’t support the Nordic model. Violence against sex workers has increased under this model as the ladies can no longer screen clients they take greater risks.

If you listen to what sex workers really want they are calling for decriminalisation of sex work not legalisation. There are so many prominent supporters of this model that discuss what is best for sex workers without even speaking to the sex workers themselves.

Sex workers must be distinguished from sex trafficked women. One makes a choice to do that kind of work whereas the other are forced.

I do not believe that women who enter sex work of their own violation should have their bodies policed. It’s their body, their choice.

Fingers crossed here, thanks for posting.

There was a study in, i think, scotland a few years ago that essentially revealed that a lot of punters are 'will if i can get away with it' types, and if they thought there would be negative consequences they wouldn't bother.

There's definitely a social acceptability thing, i mean obviously. If it's seen as normal and fine, more people do it.

Making it illegal to pay to sex removes a large tranche of casual punters, decreases demand. This is a good thing. In my opinion.

I hope Leeds Council’s paying attention.

Presumably this is partly influenced by social acceptability.

People seem to forget, when they argue for legalisation, that this really does affect people's behaviour, and the way they think about things. Even if there will always be some people who pay for sex, or smoke mj, or buy things on the black market, it does not follow that if those things are considered ok, only the same people will do them.

Presumably this is partly influenced by social acceptability

I don't understand why there is any social acceptability. I really don't.

Who is John?

Try looking at the edits behind the sex worker wikipage.

John has been busy.
Globally

I think if it goes through in Germany this will mean "best practice" "right side of history" for prostitution can no longer be said to be legalising and normalising it. Hopefully the tide is turning. I don't understand how any woman can support the concept of prostitution. Let the creepy men buy sex dolls, keep their hands off real women.

Its the seemingly insatiable demand that worries me

Though the percentage of men who use prostituted women does vary considerably from country to country, according to anonymous surveys (so there's some hope the men are telling the truth). Presumably this is partly influenced by social acceptability. Hopefully, if this law goes through in Germany, that will be a clear sign that using prostitutes is not longer acceptable to society as a whole and will reduce demand.

It's so nice to come on to FWR and hear some good news for a change.

Let's hope they follow through.

Sorry I'm sounding like a nimby here.

I fully support the Nordic Model being rolled out in Germany.

Its the seemingly insatiable demand that worries me.