Big change in Germany's prostitution law: Nordic Model gets parliamentary majority

@CharlieParley
*“Your slight of hand in bringing in those who are not prostitutes when that is however what the entire thread is about, is noted and rejected.

We are talking about the law that regulates prostitution in Germany. We are discussing the protection and needs of the women whose actual bodies are bought and sold and touched and used and abused. What your friends whose bodies are not bought and sold and touched and used and abused demand is therefore both irrelevant and immaterial to that discussion.”*

Brava! Could not have said it better myself. So tired of the dilution of prostitution into “sex work”

"Their voices should be heard and I am supportive of them."

And who on this board do you think isn't?

And stop calling them ladies.

No, I’m not vulnerable. I’m interested in what sex workers actually want. Their voices should be heard and I am supportive of them.

Ladies on the street and trafficked women and girls are totally different because they are primarily drug addicted and/or coerced and exploited. No decent person would agree that is okay, because it’s not.

A lot of sex workers don’t actually have sex. They don’t have pimps. They advertise online, work by themselves for themselves free from a pimp in the background.

Sounds wonderful. I'd like a job like that - and I'd be a 'lady' as well! No end to the benefits.

msmelanie

You're hardly vulnerable though are you?

Those are the sex workers' voices I'm interested in. The ones who are at risk.

This is really great news, thanks for sharing Lamahaha.
The Nordic Model on prostitution is so much better for society, prostitutes and women in general.

I hope it goes through.

Nope. Simply spell check.

The word is Volition.

But you keep on nit picking and not listening to the people that really matter in all of this - the sex workers.

MsMelanie, quite a way upthread: I do not believe that women who enter sex work of their own violation should have their bodies policed. It’s their body, their choice.

Now that's what I call a Freudian slip.

Where do you get this stuff about prostitution being "engrained in the national identity" from?

MsMelanie

But whenever we make attempts to better a situation with a policy approach, no matter how reasonable it sounds, you have to look at the outcomes. The outcomes with decriminalisation are fairly ho hum.

We do not have to like something to agree for decriminalisation. Bottom line is, will it make the workers safer?

I wouldn’t have sex for money but I know people who are happy to do so. We cannot keep ignoring or talking over the voices of sex workers.

Take the Nordic Model in Ireland. Two workers recently imprisoned for working together. Hmmm thought that was getting decriminalised.

And not to mention the sex worker support groups manned by the former organisation RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MAGDALENE LAUNDERIES!

My friends are classed as sex workers. In Germany you do NOT have to be having sex with clients to have to also undergo all the health checks to be permitted to work. The Dominatrix I know also works in Germany and Austria and has to have full health check and be registered and she is not having sex with clients. The laws see no distinction between street worker and high tier privileged worker.

How can one possibly justify the existence of a legal way of earning money but the idea of taxing that income is unacceptable?

I think the idea with decriminalisation, when it's thought out, is that it isn't, really legal, and that it isn't a form of work that is healthy, good for society, or that we want to encourage. But rather that criminalisation isn't a very effective way to deal with it or protect those involved and in fact may cause further problems, complicating attempts to improve the situation.

I think of it as very similar to harm reduction attempts with drugs, things like safe injection sites, or those who think it's best to decriminalise use of all drugs. It's not that most of those people think it's a good idea to inject drugs or be an addict, they just don't think crime control approaches work or they even make things worse.

MsMelanie You keep on making assumptions about who and what I or anyone else here knows. I wasn't talking about a street prostitute and I honestly have no idea where your arrogance comes from (but it tells me a lot about you).

Anyway, let's take your latest at face value:

What you have said basically amounts to "My friends are ok, how dare you interfere with their business".

However, you have conceded that street prostitutes (and in Germany add to that those working in brothels, ie 90+%) are indeed suffering greatly. You concede they wish to leave the sex trade, they are exploited, abused and violated. They do not profit, pimps and punters do.

I always look at the least harm principle when deciding to support or oppose something. Your proposal leaves the vast majority of prostitutes worse off financially and worse off in terms of their safety.

Your slight of hand in bringing in those who are not prostitutes when that is however what the entire thread is about, is noted and rejected.

We are talking about the law that regulates prostitution in Germany. We are discussing the protection and needs of the women whose actual bodies are bought and sold and touched and used and abused. What your friends whose bodies are not bought and sold and touched and used and abused demand is therefore both irrelevant and immaterial to that discussion.

But you’re talking about street prostitution who wouldn’t agree that this is a miserable existence being addicted to drugs, with a pimp etc... You see just the ladies on the streets and the ones who sign up for the documentaries . Sigh

WTF MsMelanie. Yes, I know prostitutes. And their terrible terrible suffering. Never seen anyone as black and blue as the poor woman I babysat for. I've yet to meet one or hear of one who doesn't want to leave prostitution. Or one who chose it out of passion or joy or altruistic reasons or because she couldn't ever imagine doing anything else or who always dreamt of it since she was a little girl or for shits and giggles. I know women who have chosen all kinds of weird and wonderful jobs for one of those reasons. Never a prostitute though.

If a woman wishes to sell a sexual service (not her body!) then she should be entitled to do so. It’s her body!

A lot of sex workers don’t actually have sex. They don’t have pimps. They advertise online, work by themselves for themselves free from a pimp in the background.

^all activities not a

As far as street workers are concerned yes, most are drug addicts with serious life problems etc, but that represents a small proportion of sex workers. The rest are behind doors. I actually KNOW sex workers. How many people on this board know any? None. They are in my circle of friends. Some of them are activists. ALL of them are angry that their voices are not heard; that do gooders theorise on what is best for them without even speaking to them. Is that unreasonable? All these women are independent workers and made a choice to enter this line of work - Dominatrix, several dungeon owners, cam girl, escorts. Only the escorts have sex with their clients. That is the reality of the sex industry.

As for "any other form of employment without all the punitive measures"

There are no jobs in Germany where punitive measures do not apply if rules and regulations are violated. It's what Germany is particularly good at. It's why it doesn't have zero hour contracts.

If prostitution was work like any other, no prostitute would be allowed to work without goggles, double gloves, face masks and hazmat suits. Because they are exposed to biological contaminants that are potentially infectious and sometimes lethal. They would also be protected by extremely stringent sexual harassment laws that would make pretty much a activities punters engaged in punishable by law. Because consent gained by a punter paying for sexual acts is actually no defence before the law. And so on...

Are you sure you want prostitution to be treated like any other form of employment? I gather you don't, really, because it would be impossible to sell and buy women's bodies for the sexual gratification of punters if it were.

It's not much of a choice when you see very few educated, mentally well women doing that job

Oh don't worry. I'm sure one will be along shortly- there always is on this type of thread.

I'm very surprised and very pleased at this volte- face.

I understand why people might consider decriminalisation as a possibility. It tries to avoid making it an overt part of the market that capitalists can use to prosper, or getting the state used to the tax revenue

Capitalism isn't perfect but it's better than the alternatives. Re tax I've often seen posts on here about the undesieability of taxing prostitutes' earnings.

For me that is just one more reason for the introduction of the Nordic model and the ultimate aim of banning, not legalising or de- criminalising, prostitution.

We all have a part to play in the society we live in. Those of us who can work and earn have a legal and moral obligation to pay tax. How can one possibly justify the existence of a legal way of earning money but the idea of taxing that income is unacceptable?

Well that is the best news I've had during a horrible day. Thanks so much.

MsMelanie you are misinformed. Easy to do when you don't understand the German law. Prostitution has always been legal in Germany but it was criminalised through the "Sittenwidrigkeitsgesetz" which meant that while legal, it was an unforgiveable affront to morality and anyone caught engaging in prostitution could be and was prosecuted for violating our moral codes that decreed prostitution to be socially unacceptable.

It's why when I was at university, when decriminalisation was campaigned for, a great many student projects in all kinds of disciplines (including business studies) were proposing all kinds of benign and mutually beneficial ways of engaging in the sex trade. None of it actually happened. Because none of these idealistic students understood that for pimps and punters, prostitutes are commodities not fellow human beings deserving of respect.

Anyway, prostitutes in Germany are taxed, health insured and brothels licenced etc etc. Makes no fucking difference. It's a horrific practice based on the exploitation of vulnerable people, mostly women, the vast majority of whom would stop if they knew how. And that's in Germany which introduced the model you advocate for.

Funny though how any example of a system that is an embodiment of what you're demanding but proves your claims wrong many times over always turns out to be not an example of what you're demanding because of some minor variation in legal or social practice...

"One makes a choice to do that kind of work whereas the other are forced."

It's not much of a choice when you see very few educated, mentally well women doing that job.