Feminism and the WI

Agreed ThePankhurstConnection
It's an unusual first post on a feminist board - but then as we see - there are a number of male obsessed people posting on this board at the moment.

Bold fail above sigh

feel uncomfortable with the idea of joining any group which excludes certain people based on their sex, because I consider women and men should be treated equally.

I think this is a ridiculously simplistic way of thinking and the fact it was compounded further in the thread to this Has feminism changed to mean hating men and not wanting to spend any time in their company? makes me question your motives.

I'm wondering what level of thinking leads you from
IF women sometimes want to spend time in the company of women alone
THEREFORE they must hate men.
It isn't remotely logical.

I spend time with just women because it is a great atmosphere, entirely different from mixed company and hugely different to only men. We can speak more freely about issues affecting women and indeed many other subjects. I'm not sure what is wrong with that - I'm sure some men enjoy time in the company of men exclusively and that isn't a problem to me either.

How bizarre to assume we must be in mixed sex company at all times or it seems exclusive and we must hate the other sex

I personally, prefer the company of women in general it would be a reductio ad absurdum to conclude from this that I hate men.

I think it is useful, helpful and positive to have groups for single sexes - consider support groups, there may be things men are not comfortable to discuss in front of women, the presence of women may mean they won't share and benefit from support. I know that this is true for many women and can even extend to activity and hobby based groups. I really don't see the issue at all - most of all I think if you do have an issue with it you can go and find a mixed sex group instead of complaining about women or men meeting alone.

(Mind you I don't see quite as much complaining done about men only groups and I can't think why )

I am trying to imagine a man actually joining our group, I don't think they'd be made feel welcome at all .

I went to a WI event recently which was in a public place but with a sectioned off bit for the WI,dear God,the number of men attempting to join in was mind boggling. Mind you, I've never seen so many men scuttle off with their tails between their legs,no welcome that day

I feel really strongly about this, the WI has been men free for 100 years FFS.

CassianAndor That sucks. I'm Up North and all our local mosques/temples/gurdwara helped fundraise for repairs to our crumbling synagogue and helped with the work DIY SOS Big Build style!

I think you're right. I suspect that a lot of the welcome/inclusion comes from a personal level - despite ourselves women are generally kind - so, it's easy to see this as a nice thing to do without seeing the wider implications and not considering if it's ok with other women.

I think I'll mention it at the next meeting.

Juells - I reckon a lot of it is down to lack of awareness of the issues caused to other women by the erosion of women's rights. Quite a lot of us were probably like that not so long ago, before we started reading and thinking about it. (I quite rightly had my arse handed to me a couple of days ago for not understanding a particular issue affecting other women.)

My friend suggested I should join the WI. I feel uncomfortable with the idea of joining any group which excludes certain people based on their sex, because I consider women and men should be treated equally. What are your views?

Re-reading the OP, I wonder if the reason the OP feels uncomfortable with the idea of an all-women group is because traditionally all-women groups are looked down on (by men and penis-pleasers) as being about knitting and gossiping and swapping recipes? That women's interests can't possibly be really interesting?

Someone who has posted previously in FWR is insistent that their joining of the WI has been most welcome, in their small village.

It drives me crazy that women are so...so...so... I can't think of a word to describe it. Craven? Appeasing? Desperate not to be seen as mean? Meanwhile, men have no hesitation in trampling over every boundary that women try to put in place.

Weezol no, not really - just goes to show how ghettoised London is - we're inner city but with a pretty small Muslim community. Though there is a women-only swim session which a few Somali women in burkinis go to.

There's also a substantial liberal lefty community who probably think like the OP.

I am trying to find a women-only pilates class - I really don't want to do that kind of exercise with men. But it's bloody impossible.

Are there any areas nearby with a large Muslim population? I live in an area with lots of Muslim/Sikh/Hindus and all the single sex classes/swims are just that - single sex.

We've also got a really strong MWC that has open meetings. Their first priority is women. They don't care if you're a lesbian or an atheist - the primary requirement is adult human female.

Galloway tried to suck up to the MWC for votes on the religious ticket and was handed his arse.

MrsPelligrino
Whilst there are no men in your WI at the moment, the rules for the WI means that they would accept transwomen. Same as Guides.

it's very interesting in a women only space and the whole dynamic would change if men joined. I can't see it ever happening tbh and if it did I'd be out of there like a shot.

But it’s pure luck that no men have yet turned up at your branch declaring themselves to be women. The WI policy quoted upthread says you couldn’t turn them away.

I've joined the WI recently. I am surprised at how progressive it is tbh, not Jerusalem and jam making at all.

Add a pp said, it's very interesting in a women only space and the whole dynamic would change if men joined.

I can't see it ever happening tbh and if it did I'd be out of there like a shot.

Of course men and women should be treated equally, but as long as men don't treat women as equals, we need separate spaces.

yes, that's it - I know they probably will be women only but I'd like that confirmed before I start!

and agree that not all men like mixed things, DH would hate it.

I am trying to find a women-only pilates class - I really don't want to do that kind of exercise with men. But it's bloody impossible.

Which is especially annoying since many of them turn out to only have women in them anyway. And I reckon that some blokes would like a men's only class - DH would benefit from Pilates but won't contemplate joining a mixed group.

Oh, and equality and equity aren't the same thing

This.

I am trying to find a women-only pilates class - I really don't want to do that kind of exercise with men. But it's bloody impossible.

Women-only spaces have been shown to have great value for women.

Oh, and equality and equity aren't the same thing.

I wouldn't join the WI because they allow men in.

My view is you should join whatever group you feel comfortable with.

And if you can’t be bothered to read more widely about why single sex groups might be a good idea that’s fine, but you shouldn’t feel able to judge them for others.

@Goosefoot I do think that men and women are in all important ways mentally and socially similar, or that they would be if not socialised with negative gender constructs. However part of that socialisation is constantly telling girls that their value is measured in relation to men, that they mustn't be too loud or brash or confident-seeming. Numerous scientific studies have shown that in mixed-sex groups, if women's voices are heard more than about 25-30% of the time then women are perceived as "dominating the conversation". If they are speaking around 25-30% then listeners perceive that as "about equally balanced between men and women. There's an interesting Guardian article discussing this and similar phenomena.

Because of this I most certainly do not think that the existence of women-only groups justifies the existence of men-only groups. There is justification for men-only groups when they are specifically about something that can only affect men (eg prostate or testicular cancer) or things that are specifically about breaking male gender stereotypes (a men-only knitting & sewing group for example). However men do not need a shelter from the presence of women in order to do business networking, political discussion, talking about current affairs etc so there is no need for male-only organisations in general, and the few that still exist (golf clubs and London formal clubs for example) are men-only in order to preserve male privilege and patriarchy so are not remotely justifiable.

Don't join then.
Here's a thought, people join clubs and groups for all kinds of reasons. If you want a mixed sex social group I'm sure there are plenty to choose from.
Some groups tend to be single sex (Freemasons, Guides - I'm going to ignore the trans issue for now) and that's fine and others are mixed, and that's fine too.
If you think feminism=men hating you need to read a bit more widely.

What are your views?

My view is that freedom of association is an important right and that includes association on a single sex basis.

I am not personally at a stage in my life where I feel the need to join a single sex group but that doesn't mean I never have been or never will be.

My grandmother joined the WI after my grandfather's death. She found it invaluable at the time as there were many other women in the same position as her. It was a place where she could speak freely without feeling she had to hide her emotions be they sorrow, anger or humour.

My father in law currently belongs to a men's walking group. He is not a widower himself but several other members are and as with my grandmother and the WI this group provides a place for those men where they can deal with their grief in the company of others who 'get' where they are coming from.

Grief is but one of a myriad issues where men and women alike sometimes feel more comfortable and freer to speak in single sex space. You may not want that for yourself now, or ever, but if others do I see no reason why their preference should be restricted. There are plenty of mixed sex spaces for those who prefer them so it isn't as if anyone's choice is limited by the existence of a few single sex ones.

Trans privilege activists demanding single sex groups become mixed sex is, by contrast, limiting the choice of others and infringing on their right to free association.