Athletics: China field a women’s relay team featuring two men

He talks about "shifting the transgender female athlete’s muscle mass and physiology away from that of the average male". Like I said, the idea is to create 'non-men' who can be lumped in with women.

Eric Vilain is a believer in 'gender identity'. People who believe in this concept appear to think that if a man has a 'female gender identity', he is fundamentally different from other men. Because of this feeling that such a man has, they think that he shouldn't compete against other men because his feeling makes him a 'non man'. Women are also simply 'non men' according to the misogynists who are in charge of the sporting regulations, so it makes perfect sense to them to try to alter these male 'non men' so that they can compete with the other 'non men' also known as women.

There is absolutely no real reason why a man with a 'female gender identity' shouldn't compete against other men. If he chooses to enhance his 'female gender identity' by using hormone treatments, and this adversely affects his performance in his chosen sport, then he should just accept that this is a choice he has made.

I would love to see what "evidence" this was based on and what this individual is saying after the Karolinska Institute article came out.

Joanna Harper's study, presumably.
Here's the same Eric Vilain talking about NCAA rules, at least he's honest:

www.velonews.com/2018/10/news/commentary-the-complicated-case-of-transgender-cyclist-dr-rachel-mckinnon_480285

How do the governing bodies handle this conundrum? In 2015 I interviewed Dr. Eric Vilain, a professor of human genetics at UCLA. Vilain helped write the NCAA’s rule for transgender participation. Under those rules, transgender women must undergo one year of testosterone suppression therapy before being allowed to compete. Vilain referenced studies that showed that a year of testosterone suppression significantly dropped the muscle mass in adult males.

Vilain told me that the NCAA’s rules were also aimed at inclusivity and that the governing body aims to give everyone the chance to compete. Creating rules around transgender participation, he admitted, was extremely challenging. He said that the entire concept of anatomical equality for transgender athletes was simply not feasible, and thus, it was not a stated goal of the NCAA’s rules.

“It is not about making everybody biologically equal, and I think that is a common misconception when we start talking about transgender athletes,” he said. “People want transgender [females] to be physiologically identical to [born] females, and if they’re not, it’s unfair. That is not possible.”

Dr. Vilain referenced the structure of the pelvis and the mass of certain muscle groups as anatomical differences between the male and female body that will always be somewhat different. But achieving total equality is not the point, Dr. Vilain said. The purpose of the NCAA’s rules is to, in a sense, shift the transgender female athlete’s muscle mass and physiology away from that of the average male. The goal is to create a pathway to include the transgender athlete, not create total equality.

“Can you turn a man’s body into a woman’s body? The short answer is ‘no,” Vilain said. “I think we need to move past that idea completely.”

He talks about "shifting the transgender female athlete’s muscle mass and physiology away from that of the average male". Like I said, the idea is to create 'non-men' who can be lumped in with women.

MrGHardy didn’t Karolinska research also find a reduction in muscle mass? BUT critically they found no difference in strength. Nor was there the suggestion that muscle mass reduction made it equal to female muscle mass.

jelly

From the article you linked:

"“Research suggests that androgen deprivation and cross sex hormone treatment in male-to-female transsexuals reduces muscle mass; accordingly, one year of hormone therapy is an appropriate transitional time before a male-to-female student-athlete competes on a women’s team,” Eric Vilain, M.D., Ph.D., currently the chair of the department of genomics and precision medicine at George Washington University, expressed in the policy guidelines."

I would love to see what "evidence" this was based on and what this individual is saying after the Karolinska Institute article came out.

And mimmymum, and women like you, who are complicit in this wholesale destruction of women's rights and sports and spaces - you suck. That is all.

The most infuriating thing about trans privilege activists is that they'd sooner everyone lose out than allow women anything to ourselves. They'd close all the public toilets, all the homeless shelters, destroy all women's sports rather than accept 'no'.

That is just so true isn't it? It absolutely is a war on women - and they're laughing about it on twitter. Because it is about getting one over on women who say 'no' to them. No - you're not women. No - we won't allow you in our single sex spaces, sports etc - so they'll burn the lot down.

I still don't understand why they set the testosterone level for men competing in the women's category at 10 nmol/L, which is a normal level for men, but more than 4 times the upper end of the normal level for women.

I would guess it's because 10 is the low end of normal testosterone level for men. It's not that testosterone below 10 nmol/L makes them women, it just makes them 'non-men' in the eyes of sports governance bodies.

If males in the female category are allowed to take drugs to adjust their hormone levels, then it would be sexist discrimination not to allow females in the female category to also adjust their hormone levels with drugs.

Next stop on the Implications Logic Train: Not Allowing Doping is Transphobic.

I'm not exactly hoping I'm right, zebras, as I can see it ending in, 'well we'll just have sport' which is no better for women. The public really, really aren't on board with XY trans people in women's sport though. They won't pay to watch it.

The most infuriating thing about trans privilege activists is that they'd sooner everyone lose out than allow women anything to ourselves. They'd close all the public toilets, all the homeless shelters, destroy all women's sports rather than accept 'no'.

Interesting timing of transition for this young athlete:

www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/a28875180/june-eastwood-first-transgender-runner-di-cross-country/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_rnw&utm_medium=email&date=090219&utm_campaign=nl17913529&src=nl

Then, an injury during her sophomore year ultimately became the turning point that helped her realize she needed to address her identity.

Arnold, honestly, I sincerely hope you're right, and I'm wrong.

I think it may have to get v bad, or rather v much worse, before it gets better though. Because there seems to be an awful lot of support that these Chinese vey male males are, in fact, women - and I don't see the IOC rushing to change the rules on "gender identity."

The rules themselves are batshit and discriminatory, there's no disputing that.

I still don't understand why they set the testosterone level for men competing in the women's category at 10 nmol/L, which is a normal level for men, but more than 4 times the upper end of the normal level for women.

Presumably if a woman was tested and found to have a testosterone level of 9.9 nmol/L she would be banned from competing, since it would be assumed that she was doping, but a man with the same level would be OK. So the chromosome test needs to be carried out as well, so that they know whether this level of testosterone is allowable or not.

Or is it now acceptable for female athletes to have male testosterone levels of up to 10 nmol/L? Are they going to be allowed to use steroids to acheive that?

I disgaree, zebras, either the public outrage will cause a backlash and return to strictly Y chromosome free women's sport, or it will be the end of women's sport altogether as no one want to watch tenth rate men.

XY trans individuals will end up disappointed either way.

Let's face it - this is the future of Olympic teams. This is just the beginning.

And why isn’t this making the news the way Caster Semenya has?

Because it isn't on a world stage. Yet.

Of course, once cheek swabs have been done, these athletes being male will not disqualify them because the rules are batshit.

But this whole incident will be added to the pile of evidence against the assertion that "No nefarious individual or unscrupulous nation would ever exploit trans-inclusive rules and regulations for their own benefit."

And the size of that evidence pile is admissible evidence when assessing whether the push for trans-inclusion has serious negative unintended consequences across society in general and for females in particular.

Ten years ago questions were being asked about Caster Semenya’s male appearance without embarrassment/fear. Why are we not allowed to asked the same questions of these athletes? And why isn’t this making the news the way Caster Semenya has?

Cheek swab should do it. Until then, why would any rational person assume they are female?

Quite. Even without the batshit transgender rules, anyone who knows anything about the history of doping in sports and what stuff like anabolic steroids did to athletes will look at those Chinese athletes and go hang on a fucking minute. If it looks like a man, walks like a man and sounds like a man, questions have to be asked.

Exactly, OldCrone - hence the statement from China is inadmissible as evidence when sexing these athletes.

The rules themselves are batshit and discriminatory, there's no disputing that. I'd also list them as further evidence to add to the "I reckon these are men" pile, for reasons others have detailed.

It's just quite easy for those who haven't dived headfirst into this issue and researched it thoroughly, to feel vaguely guilty about assuming purported women are actually men based merely on their appearance. If we take the line of 'assessing evidence' we sidestep the major pitfall of talking about 'proof' (because people can argue about what constitutes proof until the cows come home and it risks derailing us while leaving plenty of space for our female socialisation to be nice to kick in).

We have a statement from China suggesting female

The chinese statement says they are 'women'. We don't know what definition of 'women' they are using (plus the obvious issues around translation from chinese).

The IOC and other sporting bodies don't say that people have to be 'female' or 'women' to take part in women's events. They say they have to either be women or men who declare that they have a 'female gender identity' and testosterone at the lower end of the normal male range.

Instead of declaring that these people are women, the chinese authorities could have just said that they are men with a 'female gender identity' who have testosterone below the required limit. This would make them eligible to compete in women's events.

And urine tests are embarrassing - I believe you have to pee in front of the person administering the test so they can be sure that it really is your pee

Correct, they actually need to clearly see the urine coming out of you, so athletes are very very used to invasive testing. It’s part of sport.

Perhaps it is terrible and mean of us to name these two as men without proof.

In the interests of not getting derailed, I therefore propose we set the notion of "proof" to one side temporarily, and instead consider "evidence."

We have audio and visual evidence suggesting male. General consensus agrees with this interpretation of the sense data available to us (my six year old pulled a face when I asked "is this the women's team or the men's team?" as it is clearly a mixed team).

We have a statement from China suggesting female, that cannot be used as evidence due to its language being undefined and purposefully obfuscatory.

The available evidence suggests these athletes are male. It is up to those who believe otherwise to present evidence in favour of that position.

Cheek swab should do it. Until then, why would any rational person assume they are female?

The thing is it doesn't need to be a problem being "double checked". A clear rule to say "no Y chromosomes in order to take part in women's sport", a cheek swab and it's done. Actually less invasive than the urine testing which all elite athletes are subjected to. (And urine tests are embarrassing - I believe you have to pee in front of the person administering the test so they can be sure that it really is your pee going into the bottle, not some random sample you're using to try to game the system).

Women who you would never think twice about are now double checked. Are they who they say, or are they men hoping to pass as a women for whatever reason.

I guess being permanently lied to leads to a siege mentality.

THis does show the harm that has been done. People trusting one another less because a group of people , mostly male,has decided that gender is more important than sex which other people, mostly women ,see as discrimination.

Women who you would never think twice about are now double checked. Are they who they say, or are they men hoping to pass as a women for whatever reason.