Kink shaming

It's just shit throwing. You said nothing to apologize for pedophile behavior, in fact you and I were both counselling against normalizing kink, because that leads to normalizing criminal sexual behaviors.

It was nothing you did.

Fucking people. Justifying their orgasm comes before other people's needs and rights, every time.

They were pretty extreme mental gymnastics, weren't they? I'm still not quite sure how she managed to make that leap.

Tyrotoxicity, I'm sorry that you had to deal with the psychological fallout of such vile, baseless and slanderous accusations, from someone performing mental gymnastics to point score.

As usual, the only people's feelings that matter are the men with kinks that are damaging to vulnerable individuals and their brainwashed handmaidens.

Not convinced that poster's a man, Detroit, based on their earlier posts on this thread.

But they do worry that nefarious types wish to

Damage our credibility by making out that MN is full of “sex negative” prudes who are against anything that’s not vanilla heterosexual sex.

Which is a fair point, except that it unquestioningly accepts the premise that "sex positivity" is a good and healthy thing with no negative social consequences for women.

Fuck "sex positivity". Trying to embrace it contributed to me being retraumatised and trying to rationalise and minimise the rapes I experienced. It's a fucking irresponsible narrative to push in a context that includes a sizeable proportion of women and girls being traumatised by sexual violence.

And if that poster would like to scroll up and pay more attention to my posts, they'll note that they've accused a survivor of child sexual abuse of being a paedophile apologist.

Meh, just some young man, pissed at being requested to accept his sex as being male, and that lesbians don't want his lady penis near them....they get snippy when reality is thrown at them.

It's ridiculous, can't make the homophobic slur stick, so tries throwing some nastier shit.

I'm too old, too hurt, too marginalized to really give a fuck.

And for the record, I think that pushing the boundaries of kink is trying to push society to normalize and accept criminal behavior towards wimin and children.

ZOMG mn feminists are literally doing the work of PIE!!!

Total sadface.

It's totally true that women on mn are really cool with paedophilia.

Fucking [women /terfs /swerfs/bitches]

Yikes hippo, you are throwing around some horrendous accusations there. Pretty much the worst accusation you could throw at people. Nobody is conflating anything. You have done some very odd mental gymnastics to get to that conclusion.

We are pointing out that the more kink gets normalised, the more it removes societal boundaries. Boundaries are often there for safeguarding reasons and also as a way of respecting the feelings of different people (because most people don't want to know or don't care about your kinks) so it's important to be able to say 'hey I don't think this is right' without being shut down as a 'kink shamer.'

I have zero problem with homosexuality and have always supported same sex marriage and I used to think Pride was a positive thing, but I don't think it's right that blokes in fetish gear are parading around town centres in the middle of the day at events that are billed as 'family friendly.'

Hey hippo, I'm doing nothing of the sort.

Stop being the cool girl.

Inflicting consensual kinks, which are far from healthy, onto public spaces, is not ok. It's h

So we're not allowed to say "some consensual adult sexual activity is problematic and has societal ramifications" and also in the same post "rape and paedophilia are fucking horrific whether they're real or fictional" because this is conflating the two and normalising rape and paedophilia?

Um. No. Way to completely miss the point of what's being said.

Conflating damaging consensual adult sexual behaviour with healthy consensual adult sexual behaviour normalises damaging behaviour.

There's a very wide range of damaging sexual behaviour. Some of it's consensual. That needs acknowledging and addressing.

I'm strongly anti homophobic. I don't feel gay men like women very much on the whole, nor are they pro feminist en masse.

Having spent time in the scene in an area well known for its gay scene Ive seen how young, vulnerable gay men are used and abused, forced into accepting sub behaviors they are not really comfortable with, and even drug use they are not into (mainly meth).

Pup play is just one more dark scene that does not encourage positive self esteem feelings. It is not just dressing up. It's a strongly master and servant kinda deal. Photos of pride with pups in their sexual fetish gear interacting with children are very disturbing.

Don't be so willfully innocent.

Women, gay men, we are all being shamed into accepting harmful damaging kinks. Leading to penises in women's spaces.

I think that phrases like 'kink shaming' and 'slut shaming' are similar to 'terf' and 'swerf' in that they are used to silence any sort of criticism of questionable behaviour.

A lot of things like porn, prostitution, dangerous fetishes and pornographic music videos aired on mainstream tv are not particularly healthy nor conducive to a peaceful functioning safe society where everyone is respected. People invested in these toxic behaviours have created terms like kink shaming to silence and ironically, shame, anyone who wants to question such behaviour and use critical thinking skills.

No one said gay sex is wrong.

young women are expected to give anal sex is all Detroit said about anal sex. She is not wrong; there is research and evidence demonstrating that young women are indeed put under a great deal of pressure to accept anal sex, and that young men are being conditioned by porn to view coercing their female partners into submitting to anal sex. This is not the same as saying "anal sex is inherently immoral."

I'm not going to google feminist pornographers, because I believe it's a contradiction in terms. It suggests that it is possible for pornography to be feminist, and within the patriarchal context this is simply not so. Unless of course your definition of "feminist" hinges around choice and so-called empowerment.

Healthy adult sexual activity does not include s and m, pornography, dangerous kinks.

I could not care less if two, three or a whole pack of grown men want to dress up in private and get it on. But I do care when their kink is paraded and introduced to children as a normal healthy expression of adult sexuality. It's demeaning, it's not ok. It doesn't belong in public.

When I read that murder and torture of women is excused because of kinks being normalized, it makes me physically sick. I can't even search for the details of the case I'm thinking of to refer to it , ild not get it out my head.

The taboos need to stay in place.

I just had to scroll up and reread, and I'm pretty sure Detroit isn't conflating healthy consensual adult sexual activity with rape and incest.

Slight question mark over the inclusion of "pup play" there, but that's rather the point of the thread, isn't it?

"Pup play" may be occurring between consenting adults, but where is the analysis of how the hell those adults came to find wearing a dog suit and being taken out on a lead arousing?

People aren't born with an innate preference for pup play. It's a learned sexual response. And the process by which it is learned is inherently problematic.

a culture where our young women are expected to give anal sex, strangulation and the like just to please young porn sick men who have 'come' to expect it

And what are we doing to put a stop to this? To change expectations, to ensure that our young women are treated with respect?

I can speak out. I do. But I'm a grandmother, people (including young women) think I'm complaining because no-one is interested in me sexually.

Where are the women supporting each other in this? Who are the lawyers who will speak for us when we try to prosecute those who have abused us? We need to get organised in ways we never have before. We are under attack.

I didn't have a clue how to write het that wasn't horribly fucked up and patriarchal because I had no model for it. And the same was so very clearly true of most other hetficcers.

Oh god yes, I hear you on this one! So much of it reads like bad Barbara Cartland (and yes, I do mean that literally - stuff so toe-curling it makes Cartland look like Dworkin).

I have never understood why anyone feels the need to broadcast their sex life. Keep it between you and whoever you are doing it with. I remember those godawful ‘sex to do lists’ in 90s men’s mags, and suddenly it became so cold and clinical, like a tick box exercise. Do what makes you feel good, but it’s like going on about an amazing meal. We only care if we’re eating it ourselves. As it were...

I have started a thread.

Whoops, crosspost. Do it, Barbara! Start that thread!

the writers have internalised the message of patriarchal attitudes to heterosexual relationships, viz. that relationships can only take place between a dominant man and a submissive woman

This, absolutely.

Speaking for myself it wasn't so much that I thought one party had to be dominant and the other submissive. It was more the total lack of a model or framework of relationships between equals. I didn't have a clue how to write het that wasn't horribly fucked up and patriarchal because I had no model for it. And the same was so very clearly true of most other hetficcers.

Slash took some of the problem away because there is a framework for "assertive men with agency" that just isn't there for female characters.

I wanted to see whether you could write half-way decent fan fic about het couples that stripped away the power imbalance.

I think it's possible. But I also think it's bloody rare! Because you can't strip away the power imbalance without first consciously acknowledging and addressing it; and also because, unless you're writing in a setting that doesn't have sex-based power imbalances, then your characters are going to either have patriarchy-brain or be OOC.

Right. I'm going to be brave and click on that link, otherwise I'm going to struggle to follow half of this conversation.

Two wrongs don't make a right, Bespin. The marriages of children aged 12 to 17, mostly in poor southern rural areas of the USA , are an abomination. Utterly wrong. Reprehensible.

Incest. Pornography of all kinds. Bestiality. Pup play. All of these taboo kinks, right the way across to rape fantasies and violence, they are all shameful. Wrong. They contribute to a culture where our young women are expected to give anal sex, strangulation and the like just to please young porn sick men who have 'come' to expect it

Kinks are shameful. Some hyper woke pseudo psychology bleating about acceptance being healthy is just meaningless pap.

Fucking hippies. It is all their fault. Free love ain't so free for women.

Should we set up a fanfiction and feminism thread, rather than derail this one? Seems like there's quite a few of us interested in this, and from an inside perspective. I'd certainly be up for it.