New EHRC guidance for schools

Reappear please answer my question: what is your definition of ‘women’?

Reappearing, so the leak is worth it if women are making noise because of it and will demand a seat at the table?

I'm not quite sure why you are being so hostile? Revolution has never happened by quietly accepting the status quo and hoping they give us the scraps of power - fuck them, we'll demand the power and go kicking and screaming.

Do you think the women working on this, who have been asked to give feedback, aren't working on challenging it? It's been suggested that their efforts to challenge have been undermined by this leak. Does that still make the leak worth it?

This is just bizarre - there may or may not be some womens' groups working on this, who may or may not be affected by this being leaked - no-one can give any specifics, but just in case there are some groups working on it who might be affected, the leak should be deleted.

What if there aren't any womens groups working on it? What if there are, but they aren't going to be affected as who could know who the leak came from?

What if the only way womens groups (as mentioned above) who were unaware and are working on it now there's a leak?

Funny that the leak is bad because mystery people may be working on it, and that getting rid of the leak would be exactly what the TRAs want isn't it?

I think sunlight is a good disinfectant. I don't see why, unless something is being snuck through (which it seems to be) it shouldn't be out in the open.

Where have I told anyone to shut up? I've done the opposite - I've asked what the plan is? Now that the document has been leaked, plenty can see it, the EHRC have been tagged into the twitter thread, lots of outrage at what's in there - what now? Surely whoever leaked this has an idea what they can do with it?

FPFW & TransgenderTrend have been asking to be consulted on this for months. Does this leak make it more or less likely that they'll get an opportunity to have input into this?

Reappearing
You seem very keen for us to shut up. Why is that?

I don't see why the ECHR can't have some feedback if this is what they are planning. How will it undermine the women supposedly working on our behalf? Will they put their fingers in their ears and say 'we can't hear your concerns'? Like they already appear to be doing. The institutional capture by TRAs has gone on too long and indeed it is proceeding apace. We will demand answers to our concerns and insist on recognising provisions in the EA. Keeping silent has got us nowhere.

I would be shocked if any group that cares about the rights of women and girls would even allow this draft to be typed up. If this is the draft they have been given to comment on, then clearly the EHRC have not listened to women AT ALL.

If WomenForScotland weren't involved then exactly who and which women have been 'consulted'? Because whoever it is they aren't getting very far are they?

Or is the hope that carefully 'selected' women who can be relied on not to say difficult things will be the only ones allowed into this process?

Men, deciding amongst men, who women are and what women may have. FUCK THAT. The 12th Century wants its consultation back.

What a fucking weird thread.

'Don't tell em PIKE.'

No wonder someone leaked it.

Reappear when you say ‘women’ what definition do you use?

So you have a plan then? What is it?

I don't have a plan, but if i did it would be 'widely consult on any changes to EHRC guidance for schools and don't try and slip bad policy under the radar'

Why, would there be a problem with this plan?

Do you think the women working on this, who have been asked to give feedback, aren't working on challenging it? It's been suggested that their efforts to challenge have been undermined by this leak. Does that still make the leak worth it?

Reappearing
If this is an example of the work already done then it needs undermining before it becomes guidance.

There seems to be a lot of people saying butt out. Is that so we can be presented with a fait accompli?

Why are we not allowed to know which groups have been consulted? This smacks of backroom deals yet again, and you can bet women and girls won't be coming out on top.

Reappearing if you mean was I the one who leaked it and did I have a secret army of Mumsnetters lined up to lay siege to EHRC with balaclavas, smoke bombs and jeering? No It wasn’t me and that is TRAs style not ours...

If this has been leaked then I assume it is to enable women's groups to organise and make enough public noise that this is not forced through on the quiet.

Do I trust the powers that be to do this in an above board, equality based way? Based on my experience over the past few years? No. Absolutely not. I trust them to do whatever the trans lobby tell them to and be as underhand and anti women as they think they can get away with.

How is bringing this to wider attention undermining work already done?

I'm asking if there was any thought on what the aim was, beyond undermining work already happening. And I take it from the responses that there wasn't.

ReappearingWomen did you just join to tick us off? That unless we tell you our amazing master plan we should let the men decide?

Looks like ForWomenScotland are on the case, and that this needed leaking.

I thought it was stated at the (videoed, publicly available to view) meeting about revising this that it was unacceptable for girls to be excluded from girls' provisions in order to include a male?

This has gone for the easy option: Trans Trumps Everything.

Disability, religion, faith, culture, trauma, sex, the lot. Which puts the protected characteristics in a hierarchy of some being more important than others, and women in every situation always being subordinate to the feelings and wishes of a male - not to be fairly accommodated, but to be given what they want which is unfettered access to women and women's spaces.

I see 'assigned sex at birth' has been the open door to sex being 'reassigned'. The language is going to have to be rejected wholesale, isn't it? And bugger politeness, there is more at stake than people's feelings now.

For Women Scotland certainly don't seem to have been consulted:

twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1167030071699365889?s=20
twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1167032131664711680?s=20

So you have a plan then? What is it?

Why should this all be done under the radar?

Why shouldn't ANYONE be allowed to see the draft proposals for SCHOOLKIDS?

Surely all proposals that affect kids should be able to be commented on?

Safeguarding should be everyone's business. Not bringing in policies on the quiet.

All of that is already known. We've seen all over the U.K. how these guides are being written & even on this thread there's proclamations over women not being heard. So, I'm guessing the aim is along the lines of making some noise in the hope that women get a voice? And yet, when they do, as has happened presumably with the groups who have been approached & asked for feedback, that 'seat' almost at the table gets whipped away because they're then suspected of being the leak & pushed back out the door.

I honestly get the impression that beyond "someone wanted to bring this to much wider attention" it's not been thought through. So, I'm hoping either the OP, or others supporting the leak, can fill the rest of us in because beyond making some noise, I can't see that this will help.

So, again, what is the plan?

Indeed, if someone with autism finds lying impossible because of their protected characteristic (disability) so persists in calling a trans identified boy ‘he’, who is harassing who by insisting he says ‘she’? Considering of course that the trans child is not having to actually do anything where as the autistic child is being persecuted for their inability to carry out an action due to their disability.

Wherever you stand on any of the issues about trans children, I found reading this useful to get an idea of the range of issues facing schools. The examples (which they stressed may not be the final ones used) show how many areas of school life can be affected and the many solutions schools and teachers will have to find to negotiate them. Student welfare is, of course, the most important thing, but, god, how stressful to manage everything in the 'right' way could proof to be for teachers/school staff. The rights of the trans pupils can collide with those of girls, various religious groups and the disabled (who generally aren't served all that well in schools as it is.) It's such a delicate balancing act.