Drag practice: more authentic that actually being a woman?

And these would be, what?

Looking after home, family, children....and being happy to......that sort of thing.....But you know that, really

I had a very strange experience a couple of weeks ago - I happened to be passing Olympia (the exhibition centre in London) and there was a drag convention on.

Outside there were a few males dressed up and looking grotesque (in my view - I too view drag as a parody, as offensive 'womanface' at best, although tbh I think it's gone way beyond that now).

Anyone suggesting that, for example, the man I saw stalking along in towering platform boots, with his entire shaved head and face painted black, with eyes and lips rouged like the late Leigh Bowery (or more like Papa Lazarou, actually) was expressing more authentic femininity than a woman can kindly FOTTFSOF.

Oh, and the queue of people waiting to get in - it was a very big queue, too - was almost exclusively teenage/early 20s girls and young women with very small children. What's all that about? Why do people buy into (literally, in this case) this male fetish?

So you agree it happens? That was the only point I was making.

Pointless point though. Yes some people will have different opinions on clothes. It's got nothing to do with 'femininity'.

I do think that womanhood/motherhood and the other traditional functions and roles of womanhood ...

And these would be, what?

Not every poster, and I've no idea who they are as I rarely remember usernames, but there are certainly some and I'm surprised that more people haven't noticed

Yes people have picked up on this...and there have been discussions; often quite heated

Personally i think the sort of rejection of the 'feminine' is a reaction to individual experiences of pain, abuse, oppression - on account of being female; in a female body. Plus, of course, many women simply don't feel comfortable in flounces and frills; or feel uncomfortable in high heels ( I've not worn heels since I was 15); feel false or fake in make-up......

I do think that womanhood/motherhood and the other traditional functions and roles of womanhood have become disparaged, even by women themselves, as they have sought to liberate themselves as human beings from the bondage and lack of value afforded to the 'feminine'. For many women they have had no choice but to act and compete in a masculine world, along masculine terms of reference and value.

So what if they do?
So you agree it happens? That was the only point I was making.

Yes I've seen this too. I'm not talking about choosing not to dress in a feminine way, I'm talking about posters who seem to have a visceral dislike of make up, dresses etc and who sometimes cannot keep their disdain in check. Not every poster, and I've no idea who they are as I rarely remember usernames, but there are certainly some and I'm surprised that more people haven't noticed.

So what if they do? That has got nothing to do with 'femininity'.

I suppose in some ways the transgender ideology, and movement, is a contemporary way of managing and dealing with the complex experience that comes with being human.

Set against the backdrop of a U.S originated Disney'fied; commodified; individualistic 'choice' culture....it suggests freedom through buying into or adopting various identities or roles......which are posited as offering more opportunity to express the self fully.

The number of famous U.S personalities who now seem to have a trans sibling, child or other relation is highly conspicuous. It has become the new cool trend.

And the growing & dominant influence of pornography, fetish and fantasy role play ( cos-play etc) has created the perfect storm for this very modern phenomena. You can be whoever you want to be.......dreams can come true......live the life you deserve etc

And now we see science trying to transcend biology and nature; to control and master it...which is why the planet is in the deathly state it now is. We need to be reconnecting with nature, not going in the opposite direction.....none of it bodes well.

Oh come off it - are you seriously saying you've never seen the large amount of posts on here from posters who never wear dresses/ skirts/ make- up/ nail varnish/ tights / heels etc. etc ? It's a badge of honour trotted out on every thread discussing clothes and appearance
Yes I've seen this too. I'm not talking about choosing not to dress in a feminine way, I'm talking about posters who seem to have a visceral dislike of make up, dresses etc and who sometimes cannot keep their disdain in check. Not every poster, and I've no idea who they are as I rarely remember usernames, but there are certainly some and I'm surprised that more people haven't noticed.

Anyway going back to the thread - I'm not a fan of drag.

I do worry that some men have not worked out that being a woman is actually a real thing

I think you're right. To the self centred, narcissistic mind nobody else really has any existence that is valid or real. All exists to serve or bolster the ego.

How deeply offensive it is for some men to suggest that simply 'identifying' as a woman makes you one. That so many men, including ( & conversely, usually......) so many so called progressive, left-liberal, and gay men think that being a woman is just a matter of inner feeling just shows the dire mess that we have got ourselves into.

I suppose some of that confusion comes from the years of certain strands of feminism saying that there are no real differences between men & women - they are all in the head. Equality meaning sameness etc

I do worry that some men have not worked out that being a woman is actually a real thing. In their minds we are just defective men who do dress up and are a happy that way.

You seem to be redefining femininity. Many posters on here go to great lengths to explain that they are female but do not "perform femininity" and and are not feminine.

Femininity:
qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of women

Nothing about the definition of femininity mentions: tights/heels/nails/make up.

I think you are making shit up now. Perhaps go try reading a book or sotin?

Also makes you wonder what his definition of 'artifice' is?

I'm not entirely sure what he intended by it but it sounds to me that he thinks femininity as MEN perceive it means drag is more authentically feminine than women. So the performance of femininity is key and it must be to male standards.

The fact he uses the term 'more authentic than BEING a woman' makes his point nonsensical. Either you are a woman or you aren't - being a woman is not about performing femininity it is just about being who you are. It is disingenuous to say drag is more authentic than BEING a woman to say, a woman on her period/who has given birth/is going through menopause. In fact the way he phrased it makes him sound like a pseudo intellectual and incredibly pompous just reeling off words without engaging the brain.

Drag isn't just about stereotypes - it is about overblown, exaggerated, sometimes comical stereotypes. It is an incredible distortion of language that describes a practice of piling on make-up, contouring the face, padding the body, tucking the genitals, wearing wigs and affecting a voice as 'authentic'. Someone buy this man a dictionary.

Oh come off it - are you seriously saying you've never seen the large amount of posts on here from posters who never wear dresses/ skirts/ make- up/ nail varnish/ tights / heels etc. etc ? It's a badge of honour trotted out on every thread discussing clothes and appearance

You are conflating the accessories of femininity with actually being female and being perceived to be female.

A lot of women do reject the costumes of 'performance' because they feel trapped by them, or because they associate them with negative experience. Doesn't mean that they don't sometimes express themselves, behaviourally, in ways which are perceived as being stereotypically female ( or feminine).

I'm not sure why you (general you) are so upset by that given so many of you post frequently about how much you hate and avoid anything feminine

I celebrate my womanliness and always have done. The thing is 'femininity' and femaleness are not the same thing at all. Femininity is a set of stereotypical expectations or performances ( like a drag act).
authenticity is always better, and never comes across as fake.

I'm not sure why you (general you) are so upset by that given so many of you post frequently about how much you hate and avoid anything feminine

The truth is that what most people here rail against is dressing up and performing as something you are not - or being expected to; or expecting yourself too. What most people here and trans people have in common is the desire just to be, and express, who they feel themselves to be.

The difference is that many TRAS become imprisoned by their own performance - in that they have to 'identify' with 'femininity' 24/7 - even when they don't. I guess that is where the whole 'non-binary' thing comes from. The thing is, we're all friggin' 'non-binary' - because we're all human beings, and not walking stereotypes.

Funny how they never class doing all the housework and child care as authentic femininity.

They can have a competition any time to look after my 15 mo old who has discovered the true art of the drop to the floor back arch tantrum. They can have him at 4:30 am too when he's teething and can't sleep.

I'm one of those posters who does not wear skirts or dresses, or make up, none of which I own.

I also have many interests that are, according to current, culturally specific sexist stereotypes 'masculine'.

These are just facts about me which I point out when some stupid person comes along and suggests being a woman is about anything other than biology. Women are female, as determined at conception and observed at birth, people who are fortunate enough to have reached the state of adulthood. 'Femininity' is irrelevant, and what is considered 'feminine' changes through time and space. It really isn't very long ago (the 90s as I recall) when wearing heavily caked on make up as a woman had people suggesting you looked like 'a man in drag', ie was considered 'masculine'.

Women on this forum who do not perform what British people in 2019 call "femininity" may well be considered very feminine by the standards of a different time and place.

They may even be considered very feminine by everyone who knows them. The difference between performing and being.

If anyone has a copy of the article by (I think it was) Cherry Austin that discusses gender presentation through time and place, please @ me with a link. IIRC, it had an amusing description of Henry VIII's clothing as a "manly embroidered minidress".

Drag is as offensive as black face.

I don't think drag has any connection to femininity. It's a grotesque parody of women in the same way as blackface is a grotesque parody of black people.

You seem to be redefining femininity. Many posters on here go to great lengths to explain that they are female but do not "perform femininity" and and are not feminine.

Define "femininity". To a Maori woman, it means having her chin tattooed, but Europeans would not consider that feminine. For large chunks of European history, dresses that exposed the breasts were common for noble women, yet now it is men who may show their nipples at the pool whilst women must cover up.

Femininity and masculinity change with time and place. Gender expression and roles change with time and place. This is all the proof you need that gender is a social construct. Women on this forum who do not perform what British people in 2019 call "femininity" may well be considered very feminine by the standards of a different time and place.

Many posters on here go to great lengths to explain that they are female but do not "perform femininity" and and are not feminine.

Assuming this is true (and I'm not sure it is), what's your objection? You seem to be implying that we should all enjoy performing femininity.

given so many of you post frequently about how much you hate and avoid anything feminine.

Oh come off it - are you seriously saying you've never seen the large amount of posts on here from posters who never wear dresses/ skirts/ make- up/ nail varnish/ tights / heels etc. etc ? It's a badge of honour trotted out on every thread discussing clothes and appearance.

These two statements don't match.

I don't wear skirts. I don't hate them though, I just don't like to wear them.

This jumping to disagreement == hate is the intolerance we're talking about and disapprove of.

I also disapprove of people sending girls/boys into softplay in long dresses/shorts and no leggings/tights - because the slides do horrible things to naked skin sometimes. But I don't hate the parents who dress their kids that way. I disapprove, I think it's impractical, but I don't hate!