Drag practice: more authentic that actually being a woman?

And men like all this. They drive it. They say oh no I prefer a woman who looks natural but that's not what they look for in their porn, is it. Its not who they picked as their pin ups in years gone by.

The reason is that adhering to these time consuming and expensive procedures / routines demonstrates capitulation. I will do all this, to be what you, men, want to look at. In a lot of the clothes there is an element of the submissive as well. Hobbling shoes, clothes that bind, restrict movement.

This then feeds back on itself with men identifying the trappings of femininity as submissive, and as the trappings are all a woman is, submissive =woman. So you get all the kinky stuff for men dressing as women and then treated as a sexual submissive.

I mean the more you dig into it the more fucked it is. It's all from the minds of men though. Kind of, actually, none of this has anything actually to do with us, with real women and girls. It's all male sexual fantasy.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

Meant to add

That it's like one layer of feminity is based on women's social role (gentle, quiet, kind, unvomplaining) and how we naturally look (how the ones considered to be attractive naturally look).

And then the performance exaggerates this, mainly around the appearance. False lashes, tight clothes, high heels, makeup, highly styled dyed hair, hair removal etc.

Both are social constructs or ideals maybe is a better word,

The second is what most people recognise as performing femininity even if they don't call it that.

The second is what society expects our teenage girls to do, and then takes the piss out of them when they do, up to and including drag, but also takes the piss out of them if they don't.

Some of us aren't obsessed about the way we look
And there's my point, thank you. That sentiment could have been expressed in a neutral way, e.g. 'some of us don't care how we look'. There was no need for the derogatory wording.

Another word with nuance and varied meanings depending on context

Current standards of femininity/ performing feminity, are around current modes of behaviour and dress that women and girls are expected to adhere to, to some extent, or some of the time.

Being feminine, is again around looks and behaviour, but not so, showy for want of a better word. Lots of women are feminine in this way without trying, just by dint of their looks or personality. These standards change more slowly but they do, eg smoking in public used to be unfeminine, now (while lots of people don't like smoking) it's not a thing that specifically a woman shouldn't do if she is to woman right. Or, doing certain jobs, police officer for eg.

Of course a woman who doesn't conform to these more subtle standards is still a woman.

So eg I conform (or did when younger!) to male approved looks. Small build, blonde hair, boobs. With no makeup and in non feminine clothes, I look feminine.

I only perform femininity for work (makeup and clothes to an extent) and ill be honest I quite enjoy it, I do feel like I'm putting on a costume though.

The fact that so many men see the costume as all there is to women is really depressing tbh.

Marguerita okay but it’s not very nice to basically slate anyone who is bigger than a size 10 just to prove some dumb point. In your opinion trousers don’t suit hourglass figures but not everyone agrees with that, thankfully. People can of course wear what they like. But it’s a fact that women’s clothes throughout history have tended to be impractical and uncomfortable. Skirts meant that cycling, riding, working outdoors etc was made more difficult than it needed to be. Corsets caused deformity and huge amounts of pain and even organ problems. Crinolines made it hard to get around. I won’t even get into the massive damage that wearing high heels can do to the body. It’s interesting that all of these potential health issues are all associated with women’s clothes and not men’s. As I said, people can wear what they want, but my feet are pretty fucked now, I have bunions and get pain easily and I am pretty sure it comes from wearing high heels in my late teens and early 20s. And I wore them pretty much because I was told by the media and by my peers that it was more attractive than flat shoes. Then the pain got too bad and I also stopped caring so much.

Personally I think unless a woman is very slim most women look terrible in trousers. They are very unflattering on anyone larger than a size 10.

Some of us aren't obsessed about the way we look and go for comfort and practicality. I'd look pretty daft riding my motorbike in a skirt.

Who has the rule book on what is and what isn't feminine? I've not seen it so I can't be sure that I'm feminine. I thought my breasts, vagina and XX chromosome make up was all I needed, but it seems not.

Also how many boxes do you need to tick. If I tick the long hair box can I get away with not wearing heels, or will that mean I'm still not a proper female.

Pota2

They are very unflattering on anyone larger than a size 10

Well aren’t you a bundle of delight

I was responding to the ridiculous post by someone who has never met a woman who doesn't look better in trousers.

I look terrible in trousers. Trousers do not suit an hourglass shape. Had that nonsense not been posted I would have kept my opinion to myself.

I don't reject femininity at all - although some women might, and have every right to.

I reject women being told they must perform femininity, in the form of heels, makeup, taking on the caring roles etc, just because they're women.

I firmly reject men performing an exaggerated parody of femininity and then calling themselves more "authentic" or feminine than women - because they're just not. Femininity is not the grotesque parody showcased by drag queens.

Because all of these are nurturing, supportive roles...

These are aspects of femininity that I don't reject though, so it is wrong to my mind to suggest that rejecting the passing whims of fashion when they don't coincide with my personal tastes amounts to 'rejecting femininity'.

I do think these roles are undervalued in our society. I also think they are the most important and satisfying roles. These are the roles that immediately come to my mind when the word 'femininity' is used. Not ludicrous, over the top clothing and make up, but this very quiet, feminine strength without which society falls apart.

The quietly getting on with supporting the elderly, nursing the sick, holding the community together

Well, yes! Because all of these are nurturing, supportive roles...

I think it's important, as it's defining the word femininity - to display the characteristics associated with being female as defined by men.

By that reckoning, it's reasonable for femininity to be heels and little dresses. And for a trans man to look female, not feminine. Because if the descriptor specifically requires the approval of men, then it's accurate to say anybody wearing those clothes/adapting that persona is feminine.

Any woman can be dressed in masculine clothing, a woman can be described as having masculine qualities or features. Does that mean she is male? Or does that mean that she displays qualities associated with maleness as defined by men?

Indeed, they're just clothes

Of course, but in modern societies clothes become personal expressions of the self. For some people it would even seem that their main creative outlet or expression is through their clothing. Especially so for many women. And this then extends to the body itself - through various forms of body modification.

The most obvious quality attributed to women is caring, and not just in the child rearing sense Justhadathought mentions, but more widely.

The quietly getting on with supporting the elderly, nursing the sick, holding the community together.

What "qualities or characteristics are attributed to women"? There is biology obviously which is innate

Hormones are important and highly influential, of course ( no matter how often we are told that hormones and biology don't matter)and there simply has to be some sort of genetic imprint too....when it comes to adaptive performance & function. Why should humans be any different to any other creature on earth?

Obviously as evolved creatures much of our instinctive performance is over-ridden or modified by social and/or other factors.

Ascribed womanly characteristics would be : empathy, & communicativeness/ verbal agility, amongst others. any characteristics associated with the process and facts of pregnancy, childbirth and child rearing ( whether or not an individual woman goes on to have children or not).

They are very unflattering on anyone larger than a size 10

Well aren’t you a bundle of delight

Each to their own

Indeed, they're just clothes.

Nah, I just find skirts and dresses uncomfortable and impractical, and if I'm honest have never met a woman who doesn't look better in trousers

You've not me me, then. I love skirts, and think they are more flattering for me than trousers ( I, personally, do care about aesthetics). They have to be knee length though - not too long, and not too short.

I have short hair though, and don't wear heels. I love boots, or else fit-flops. I don't like shoes. I think we all try to find a look that we are comfortable with, that suits our personality.

Nah, I just find skirts and dresses uncomfortable and impractical, and if I'm honest have never met a woman who doesn't look better in trousers

Each to their own. Personally I think unless a woman is very slim most women look terrible in trousers. They are very unflattering on anyone larger than a size 10.

Femininity:
qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of women

Nothing about the definition of femininity mentions: tights/heels/nails/make up

I think you are making shit up now. Perhaps go try reading a book or sotin?

What "qualities or characteristics are attributed to women"? There is biology obviously which is innate.

This forum has post after post of posters saying how much they reject femininity- what do you think they are rejecting? It certainly isn't biology.

Drag isn’t feminine though. Glitter, killer heels, false lashes, gigantic hair, skimpy dresses etc are really not feminine, they’re just gross. Feminine things are supposed to be delicate and pretty like eyelet lace and hand painted silk in pastel.

Pointless point though. Yes some people will have different opinions on clothes.
Pointless or not, it was not about people having different opinions on clothes, as I'm sure you realise. It's about posters who ooze disdain for women who enjoy dresses and make up but who always deny it when challenged.

Personally i think the sort of rejection of the 'feminine' is a reaction to individual experiences of pain, abuse, oppression - on account of being female; in a female body

Nah, I just find skirts and dresses uncomfortable and impractical, and if I'm honest have never met a woman who doesn't look better in trousers.

Men in kilts by contrast............

I digress. My opinion is, of course, entirely subjective and there are as many opinions as to what looks best on women as there are people on the planet, so it isn't like I go round harassing skirt wearing women in the street or anything.

Nor do skirts, dresses, make up conjure the word 'feminine' in my mind particularly. I'm a child of the 80s, I've always been a sucker for the 'dandy highwayman' man in flouncy shirts and make up. To me 'feminine' brings to mind quiet strength not flamboyant clothes.

Oh, and the queue of people waiting to get in - it was a very big queue, too - was almost exclusively teenage/early 20s girls and young women with very small children. What's all that about? Why do people buy into (literally, in this case) this male fetish?

Some of what people now expose their children to is grotesque. Some of the halloween costumes you now see ( imported from U.S culture) are horrible and gruesome...all about sheer physical horror; and many of the costumes of street performers that you see in our city centres are gross too. To my mind scary, and de-sensitised.