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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Any stats on transwomen who are agp compared to homosexual

54 replies

Qcng · 25/08/2019 21:04

Hi,
Basically there's someone in my life who is gender critical to a point, (thinks it's ridiculous for males to compete against women in sport and is generally conservative when it comes to same sex spaces).

They basically refuse to or can't believe that a "man dressed in women's clothing" could possibly be attracted to women.
He is convinced that all transvestites/transwomen are "gay" - attracted to men.

I have tried to explain that some cross dressers or transwomen are attracted to women, which is a worry for women in same sex spaces like prisons/shelters etc, but he basically thinks I'm making it up! He can't believe it, so it leads to a sort of plateau in his thinking which a lot of men get to, which is
"Well it's only harmless feminine (weak) gay men so what's your problem?"

Anyway.

I've come across this sort of thinking from men rather a lot.

Can any of you help me with concrete statistics wrt basically

The percentage of males who identify as women who are attracted to women
Compared to
The percentage of males who identify as women who are attracted to men?

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MoleSmokes · 24/09/2019 00:41

ps. I forgot Rod Fleming - because I am an evil feminist!

If you can put up with him occasionally foaming at the mouth about feminists (he has got some VERY weird ideas about feminists!) there are some very interesting observations, theories, histories, info on different cultures, etc. on Rod Fleming's web sites.

1) One site is dedicated to all things HSTS:
allabouthsts.com

2) Rod Fleming's website - selected articles

"Travestis and traviesas: in memory of Miriam Rivera"
rodfleming.com/2019/08/21/travestis-traviesas-miriam-rivera/

"Transgender? Sex, Sexuality, Orientation and Gender"
rodfleming.com/2019/06/17/transgender-sex-sexuality-orientation-and-gender/

"Transition desire types: HSTS, AGP, AAP and ROGD"
rodfleming.com/2019/02/13/transition-desires-hsts-agp-rogd/

(If anything needed a "trigger warning", this next one does. It's sort of "anthropological" but still, it might be upsetting. Brief mention of prostitution too.)

"Access to sex, contraception, pederasty and rape"
rodfleming.com/2019/01/29/women-control-access-to-sex/

And finally . . . AGPs - It's all the fault of Feminists! (Of course!)

"Feminism promotes male transgenderism 1"
rodfleming.com/2019/05/14/feminism-transgenderism-1/

MoleSmokes · 24/09/2019 00:09

Qcng I was looking for similar stats today.

1. SUMMARY: "Basically we don't know because everyone is using different defintions"

"Prevalence of Transgender Depends on the “Case” Definition: A Systematic Review"
europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC4823815&blobtype=pdf

2. SUMMARY: "I'm an HSTS - what the heck! Where did all these AGPs come from???"

"The Invisible Transsexual" (HSTS Transsexual)
www.transkids.us/invisible.html

3. SUMMARY: Here are some sums and this is the answer!

"In recent decades, psychologists have tried to establish an estimate on the prevalence of transvestic fetishism using in-depth interviews with large numbers of participants.

According to them, about2-3 percent of men, and around 1 in 200 women, experience transvestitic fetishism.Stonewall UK now includes “crossdresser” as a full transgender identity. It’s not surprising, given its higher prevalence than transsexuality, that Stonewall would wish to do this — in fact, by including fetishistic transvestites to swell the ranks, Stonewall could achieve the huge jump in trans numbers observed in recent years.

Lynn Conway(who fudge factored the incidence of transsexualism) says that conservative estimates of crossdressing fetishism puts it at a prevalence of 2-5% of men, and notes that about 1 in 20 to 1 in 50 of these men will eventually go on to complete a full transition.

This blog is no stranger to discussingBayesian statistics, in whichprobabilities are not independent of one another but must be regarded in relation to known information. We’re going to look through that lens again, today.

If three percent of men are sexually aroused by crossdressing, and only 1 in 2500 meet the qualifications for classic transsexuality, then only 1.3 percent of the overall MTF “transgender” population is actually transsexual, and 98.7 percent are fetishists.

People noticing that even many FTMs in today’s rapidly exploding FTM population seem motivated by fetishizing gay men in visual novels, anime, or other media are right to notice:if .4 percent of women are sexually aroused by crossdressing, and only about 1 in 10,000 women is transsexual (prevalence figures from last post), only 2.5% of self-identified FTMs are genuinely transsexual.

These figures, of course, assume thatallfetishistic crossdressers / transvestites are holding themselves out as transgender. What if 80 percent of transvestitic fetishists were quite content to occasionally crossdress at home, with no trans identification needed, andonly 20 percent considered their activities to fall under the trans umbrella?
Even then, only 6.5 percent of MTFs, 10 percent of FTMs, would be transsexual, with the rest being fetishists.

We can take it a step further and use Conway’s lower bounded estimate: that 1 in 50 fetishistic crossdressers (2 percent) will eventually take the leap and transition to a full-time cross-sex presentation. Two percent of the 3 percent of males who engage in crossdressing fetishism yields a prevalence of .06%, or about 1 in 1667. But remember, the incidence of transsexuality is only 1 in 2500.

Even if only two percent of male crossdressing fetishists decide to transition, these fetishists will constituteover 60 percentof the overall transgender population, while transsexuals become a minority in their own movement."

Full article: culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2018/11/25/what-happened-to-the-transsexual-rights-movement-more-on-percentages-and-prevalence/

Transwidow987 · 20/09/2019 15:25

There are trans identifying men online declaring that if lesbians aren't willing to daye them or have sex with them, they are transphobic.
There are Tim's who out up youtube videos about how hateful it is for lesbians to not be attracted to them. Even the ones who still have penises expect lesbians to want to have sex with them and refer to "lady dick". I saw a video in which a man said that if a lesbian has been traumatized sexually by men and that is why she won't date a person with a penis, it's up to her to get therapy to get over that because that is still transphobic. It is utter narcissistic misogynist rapey nonsense.

Datun · 20/09/2019 03:51

Check out stonewalls glossary OP.

Female attracted transwomen are so common, Stonewall has had to redefine the meaning of homosexual and lesbian to accommodate them.

Lesbianism is no longer based on same sex attraction. It's attraction to the female gender, which can be the male sex. Or so the male lesbians inform us.

Gingerkittykat · 20/09/2019 02:11

Show him Jessica Yaniv's twitter profile where JY declares they are a proud lesbian.

2BthatUnnoticed · 20/09/2019 01:22

Yes 3% of the male population is quite high. Note, that estimate relates to males who have agp - not all of whom will publicly live as TW.

Personally, I’m all for male born persons wearing traditionally “female” clothes if they want. As long as they respect sex segregated spaces, we’re good.

People like Eddie Izzard are not in danger using the men’s, all the vocal male allies need to stand up and say that.

Transwidow987 · 19/09/2019 19:21

You haven't heard of transbians?

The "cotton ceiling" concept would not exist if TiM were not attracted to women.

NotTonightJosepheen · 26/08/2019 11:59

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TheInebriati · 26/08/2019 11:56

Your friend is perfectly capable of looking for his own stats, but he won't. Just like he won't listen to any stats that you provide, or your opinion.

He's yet another mediocre male who assumes that his beliefs about the world carry more weight than yours. He buys into the hierarchical model of society, he knows he benefits from it, and this is how he helps uphold it.
He is transgressing women's boundaries by proxy.

NotTonightJosepheen · 26/08/2019 11:41

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NotTonightJosepheen · 26/08/2019 11:32

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NotTonightJosepheen · 26/08/2019 11:26

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Qcng · 26/08/2019 11:10

NotTonightJosepheen
AGP must be scarily common
Amongst the general population, no
Amongst 'transgender' m to f, yes. More common than homosexual transsexuals

My thinking was that only a small number of males with AGP will actually "come out as transgender", most will just stick on frilly knickers behind closed doors and basically have a private fetish.

Looking at the 60% of transwomen being agp as high, then thinking how many there must be who aren't changing their names/pronouns.

LangCleg / 2B
3% is a lot.

Imagine if that 3% of men all all felt bold enough to actually "live as a woman" and add that to men with dysphoria / homosexual transsexuals.
Something like 5-6% of "women" would actually be male.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 26/08/2019 10:43

OP - this bloke doesn't want to see what's there. He will put his own opinions above evidence - it's a similar phenomenon to climate change denial etc.

What does he make of Izzard? (He's one of the few people we can talk about unambiguously because of what he himself has publicly said).
Izzard is transgenderr^,[76] identifying as "somewhat boy-ish and somewhat girl-ish".[16] When asked what pronouns he prefers, Izzard said "either 'he' or 'she.'"[1] In the past, Izzard identified as a transvestitee^, and he has also called himself "a lesbian trapped in a man's body"

Izzard is a strong male who has no qualms about using women's loos.
Now, Ive no doubt he's no physical threat to women, but he's the socially acceptable tip of the iceberg. Your friend doesn't want to see what lies beneath. Not his problem, nowt to do with him...

I think perhaps there's a large element of him dividing people into 'proper men' and non-men (gay men, effeminate men, transvestite and transgender males, and women).

2BthatUnnoticed · 26/08/2019 09:45

Yes I’ve seen a similar stat, that up to 3% of males are affected by a/g/p. Previously many may have cross-dressed etc private - it’s only recently become socially acceptable to “live as a woman” [or maybe the lot of women has improved enough in the West].

LangCleg · 26/08/2019 08:53

Rough estimates are that 1 in 30 men are AGP to some extent or other (this doesn't mean all 1 in 30 will declare themselves trans and/or develop dysphoria and seek physical transition).

Look: 95% of men are heterosexual. There is no way that the vast, vast majority of males currently asserting a trans identity are not also heterosexual.

NotTonightJosepheen · 26/08/2019 08:33

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Qcng · 26/08/2019 08:26

MamaOomMowWow
And 60% is waaay higher than I would have thought.
AGP must be scarily common Sad

OP posts:
Qcng · 26/08/2019 08:24

Thanks for your replies here, all v useful

zebras
But - surely your gc-ish friend must realise that a substantial proportion of transwomen are attracted to women?
No, he really, really doesn't. He can't/won't believe it. It's quite frustrating.

Errol
A TW is likely to describe a relationship with either a woman or a TW as 'lesbian'
Yes I told him this and he shakes his head saying "I doubt it" looks at me like I'm crazy.

Goosefoot
Either he's met people who are trans who were gay men, or he just can't quite wrap his mind around the idea of a heterosexual man who wants to live as a woman
Yes, it's something like that I think.

Spinninghag
Thank you!

MamaOomMowWow
Perfect! Thank you that's really really useful.
Why didn't I try Wiki?!

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NotTonightJosepheen · 26/08/2019 07:19

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SheWhoMustBeSilent · 26/08/2019 07:06

From "Gender Dyshoria is not one thing":

"Autogynephilia is a probably rare, although it is difficult to know for certain. Among males who seek gender transition, however, it is common. In fact, in Western countries in recent years, including the United States, autogynephilia has accounted for at least 75% of cases of male-to-female transsexualism."

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

25% of men who present themselves as women are homosexual transsexuals [HSTS]. This was largely because same-sex marriage was not law. Now that same-sex marriage is law in many countries, the volume of HSTS is likely to decline.

ImFineThankYouSusan · 26/08/2019 04:21

Get your friend to look on twitter or reddit.

Fair warning though, a good amount of the accounts have a NSFW warning Hmm

2BthatUnnoticed · 26/08/2019 02:29

Is your friend on Twitter OP? TW with a}g}p seem to dominate trans Twitter. They have a visceral hatred for any TW who believes TW are male (e.g. Blaire White, Fionne O).

MamaOomMowWow · 26/08/2019 01:18

From Wikipedia:

"A 2015 survey of roughly 3000 American trans women showed that at least 60% were attracted to women. Of the trans women respondents 27% answered gay, lesbian, or same-gender-loving, 20% answered bisexual, 19% straight, 16% pansexual, 6% answered asexual, 6% queer, and 6% did not answer."

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_sexuality

MissingLesbianSpaces · 26/08/2019 01:10

Tell him to google "Women are Human"

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