Transgender policies could alter after hormone research The Times 23 Aug 2019

Surely there must be a rule that if any player has an involuntary or voluntary reason by which they keep hurting the other players, then that player should be taken off the team. End of story. (And that would be equally applicable to a man playing on a mans team so not a discrimination issue)

As it happens there is a very simple solution to this particular situation, that the player joins the appropriate team for their sex, the men’s team. However even if there isn’t a suitable team for a player, then that is just hard luck, they can’t stay on the team voluntarily or involuntarily causing harm to the other players, however much they might ‘just want to play rugby’.

‘Single-gender’ sports teams are clearly unfair and dangerous to women players because of male biology which arises from sex difference. That bigger heavier taller stronger Male biology isn’t just about specific hormone levels which could be changed. That physical relative advantage just is what it is and it can’t ever be changed. It’s dangerous for official rugby powers-that-be to choose to keep pretending. and Its the opposite of inclusive to choose to include players who you know will hurt other players and who willl cause other players to not play at all, for their own safety.

It’s also deceptive and manipulative gaslighting and an undermining of consent norms, to present risks to players as being within the normal expected range of risks, when actually the powers-that-be already know that the risks in this scenario are much greater than in the normal expected range.

"I do feel guilty, but what can you do?" she says. "I don't go out to hurt anybody. I just want to play rugby."

Yes, this is such manipulative shit. Sickening. They don't feel guilty at all.

"I do feel guilty, but what can you do?" she says. "I don't go out to hurt anybody. I just want to play rugby."

Ugh, sick of this shite being peddled out. Noone is trying to stop you playing sports. Just, play on the correct team for your sex, thats all. Mind I guess many of these mediocre males, if not allowed in the womens comps, would not play at all as they arent good enough to qualify for the mens..oddly.

Oh sorry AnotherNight, I did check but I must have cross posted with you :)

Here

There's a bit more about this in the Times today in the sport section.

Here

quixote

No I am not. As I said, this advantage is a counterfactual, I.e. something you can never know. You can measure these things yes you can compare the size distributions of these yes, but you will never know what the size of these organs would have been, had that person not gone through male puberty. At best you could say their height makes them 75% percentile for men, 75% percentile for women is X. But you can't actually know what the real value would have been.

Yes, hormone treatment has little impact on muscle density and I'm glad research is being done to show what everyone already knows.

However, when it comes to contact sports like rugby another big issue is bone density. I would like to see research on that because XY trans people are not just taking hormones to reduce testosterone but in some cases are taking artificial oestrogen.

In women oestrogen is used as HRT post menopause because oestrogen protects bone density. We know this. There is no reason whatsoever to think it does not also preserve the greater bone density of men.

Although men lose bone density at a lower rate than women, they do lose bone density as they age. Given this I am not convinced men who take artificial oestrogen should even be allowed to compete against other men, particularly in senior events, when it comes to contact sport and I'm always surprised this issue is rarely mentioned.

Thanks 1994

The Times speaking out yet again. If I could afford a subscription I'd definitely be putting my money their way.

Sunlight, fresh air, truth telling. Thank you Martin Zeigler at the Times.

Hopefully this article will build pressure on organisations to stop this fucking nonsense and stop more women getting injured, or paralysed or killed PURELY TO VALiDATE MEN.

I mean what’s the male equivalent of this situation? What do men get hurt or could be killed doing, purely to validate women’s feelings of personal identity?
What causes men to lose out on male-only opportunities for professional work or ‘just’ to lose out on physical exercise and team bonding with other men, purely to validate women?

MrGHardy, you're being sarcastic about the refusal to measure anything except testosterone, right? Of course the can measure height and lung size. It's almost as easy to measure muscle mass, max O2 consumption, etc.

They're just being obtuse because "nobody" is affected. Only women.

Step in the right direction but let us be real. All of these males will always have an advantage even if they limit the testosterone to say 3nmol/L for the last 3 years or something.

Why? Because their body went through male puberty. They are larger than they would otherwise be, they have different skeletons than they would otherwise have, etc. etc. etc.

To link this purely to muscle mass, strength and power as somehow indicated by one hormone (testosterone) is a complete joke. I understand that this is something measurable, i.e. something you can 'research' while the height, skeletal, lung size, etc. advantage is a counterfactual and you can not measure it, the answer is not to pretend that these don't matter. That all that matters is testosterone that you can measure.

A good mate of ours (6ft, built) who has a PhD had a head injury playing rugby a couple of years ago and has had to give up work for medical reasons. He's never going to be the same again and that's a man v man tackle gone wrong.

@FormerMediocreMale Another share token for you and anyone else who needs it.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transgender-policies-could-alter-after-hormone-research-hwbkb9wzd?shareToken=9fa0f92c613456803f2f79d98bd04093

I know the story is about the RFU but the RFL used to have a policy banning mixed sex teams after the age of 12. Sensible policy that I hope is still in place.

The comments aren't happy about this.

Rugby is the most aggressive sport. And men who play or have played will be well aware of the danger to women of this shitshow. Entitled fuckers, as I have said before, no one is stopping trans people from participating in sport. They are just not entitled to always win or be the best person on the team. That screams entitlement. Go play at the level for your sex, age or ability if you just want to play. And good spot about the names too!

Muscle strength stays relatively high? Really? ZOMG! Who could possibly have guessed? All those photos where members of the team come up to one team member's sternum. But surely that means nothing? It's just a characteristic. Like having blond hair or something. Right?

/endless screaming. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?/

(Sorry about the shouting.)

I’ll bet my ass they’re related. Men will always prioritise other men, especially their own, over women.

Brian Minty
Jessica Minty-Madley

Related?

Glad rugby have been looking into trans athletes. Cant read the Times article tho as the share token was time limited.

"I do feel guilty, but what can you do?" she says. "I don't go out to hurt anybody. I just want to play rugby."

Play rugby as a fucking male then stop hurting women you fucking fucker

No one is being excluded, there are nales and females and teams of different levels for both males and females. The fucker needs to find a male team of their level.

As someone else said, it’s awfully close to being an Onion article.