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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Genuine question on patriarchy

117 replies

Bodd8 · 22/08/2019 16:42

So.... Ive been on MN for a while but named changed because quite frankly Im scared to ask. I feel that the longer I wait to ask the question more ignorant I am going to feel.

The reason Im asking:
I work in a highly professional environment, male and females are in roughly equal numbers, if not grouped in certain areas. There are several women that I work alongside and they are very good at their jobs and well respected. The pay for consultants and perm staff is set. It doesnt change, its the same for everyone. Its been the same wherever I work. There are also women working in quite higher positions than me. Honest to God, I've never heard anyone make sexist comments, it almost feels like a non entity. I've never personally witnessed any inappropriate behaviour [thats not to say it doesnt happen elsewhere]
You get where Im going with this?
Ive met couples on the school run and made friends, the men Ive made seem to make equal efforts with work, children and home keeping. Their wives seem in no way to be victimised and seem to have the majority of control over the daily activities of the family.

So, Im a divorced man, I was subject to all kinds of abuse from ex wife, including violence. When I finally left her she was very angry and tried to use our child against me. I had been providing the majority of care for our child as we both worked full time, however when it came time to file for joint custody I realised how tough it would be. When I attended court it was all female. All three judges, both solicitors and barristers, CAFCASS, even the justice clerk were all female. The pressure for me to give up and "let Mum do the raising and you can babysit to give Mum a break" was immense.
It has cost me £20k to finally secure joint lives with order, as a man I was not entitled to legal aid despite the domestic violence proof I had, and no one ever suggested that the ex should lose contact.
As man it feels I can only be a real parent if a woman or a judge has allowed it.
Anyway I could go on but I hope you'll understand my point.

The question:
I genuinely struggle to see a patriarchy people talk about, admittedly I live in a town of mostly families in the UK. What are the main points women feel are unfair, and in the genuinely nicest possible way how would I notice or do something differently in my daily life?
Im trying not to be bitter about how hard it is to raise my child in a world that sees me as a second class parent due to my gender. Whilst I understand this might not seem as important to some but Id die ten times over for my child. She is the only thing that matters to me. So Im trying to understand "the other side of things" as it were.
Any insight welcome please.

OP posts:
CheckingOutTheQuantocks · 23/08/2019 09:19

If Bodd8 is the same person as Parent999, there is no point in engaging with him. He's just an old-fashioned misogynist who likes to hang around on the Relationships board and moan about evil wimmin trying to stop children from seeing their fathers. He doesn't want to understand patriarchy or anything else to do with feminism, he just wants to waste your time and get a load of women running around posting links to resources that he has no intention of reading.

Do not throw any more fish to the sealion.

HeyDuggeesCakeBadge · 23/08/2019 09:17

Do your own research Bodd stop expecting women to do the leg work for you.

You are coming across as arrogant and entitled.

sackrifice · 23/08/2019 09:14

But I just cant see how they were forced or steered into it.

Do you do any of these things just to stay safe?

Posting again as you blithely ignored it.

Do you not think women or girls are forced into anything at all, even when they have the threat of male violence over their heads at all times?

Genuine question on patriarchy
FusionChefGeoff · 23/08/2019 09:14

If I am on an evening networking event or required to travel for work, I am always asked 'So who's looking after the children?'

My DH is never asked that question.

Patriarchy.

Just because you don't see it in your extremely narrow frame of life experience being just 1 man out of a whole population doesn't mean it's not theee!

Datun · 23/08/2019 09:13

Read some books bodd. This is just lazy.

Bodd8 · 23/08/2019 09:10

They are intelligent and I’m not being obtuse. It might seem I’m arguing to the contrary but if I’m to genuinely believe something and do anything about it I have to understand it. Data analysis and root cause is a big part of my job so I’m naturally cynical about how data percentages and how they can be used to come to a conclusion. My mindset is always the same, I don’t look for data to support a conclusion, on this thread I’m looking for the evidence for conclusions you’ve already come to. It helps me if I can see an experience I’ve had and think “ah yeah, there’s the patriarchy they’re talking about.

OP posts:
Datun · 23/08/2019 09:08

But I still think it's useful to get thoughts out there.

It's really is. It's very informative.

And now the OP has been rumbled, watch the patriarchy swing into overdrive.

Kit19 · 23/08/2019 09:07

I don’t believe you’re posting in good faith either so I’m out

OhHimAgain · 23/08/2019 09:05

I agree that the OP isn't posting in good faith.

The earlier name change fail revealed that.

But I still think it's useful to get thoughts out there.

OhHimAgain · 23/08/2019 09:04

Wouldnt it be nice to be CEO and also do the school run everyday at 3:15pm but it cant be done. Thats not patriarchy, thats because theres 20 people behind them waiting to stab them in the back if theyre not at the meeting. Thats not a woman problem, anyone has to deal with it, regardless of age/gender/race

Have you ever questioned why 'business' is so unfamily friendly?

The very fact that 'business' is so family unfriendly is because of the patriarchy. That women have found a way to navigate it by 'sacrificing' having children; the fact that you feel you have had to 'sacrifice' your career to raise your daughter is the patriarchy in action because when the system was devised in this way; when society valued business and making money more highly that nurturing and raising the next generation it was because it only included men and raising, nuturing, educating and caring for humans was 'women's work' and wasn't seen as important.

If raising children; having a family was valued, then it would be possible for the CEO to leave to collect their child from school at 3.15pm because that would be regarded as important. And there wouldn't be 20 people waiting behind them to stab them in the back because they'd all be doing the same and it would be valued and respected.

The only reason society; business is structured in the way it is is because it was built around men and their interests and needs with little regard to women. That is patriarchy.

Datun · 23/08/2019 08:58

Oh, I missed that post. It's a choice. Nothing to do with patriarchy.

I don't believe you're posting in good faith, bodd. The child custody thing, the everything is a choice thing, there is no wage pay gap, I know some male nurses.

Absolutely as old as the hills, and very predictable. Total MRA.

HeyDuggeesCakeBadge · 23/08/2019 08:58

I don't belive you have posted in good faith and I'm pissed off that after all the effort women have gone to in order to 'educate' you in real life examples you are so willing to dismiss them.

I'm really cross that youve come to a female centred space and demanded we discuss something and then dismissed us - THAT is the patriarchy.

Datun · 23/08/2019 08:57

The fact that every male ceo with a family never gets told they have sacrificed their family for their career, doesn't strike you bodd?

HeyDuggeesCakeBadge · 23/08/2019 08:54

Bodd I can't believe after all the Intelligent, thoughtful responses that women have given you have just dismissed them in an instant because YOU don't see it.

You are being deliberately obtuse.

Bodd8 · 23/08/2019 08:50

Im sorry but I believe that is a fact of life. Wouldnt it be nice to be CEO and also do the school run everyday at 3:15pm but it cant be done. Thats not patriarchy, thats because theres 20 people behind them waiting to stab them in the back if theyre not at the meeting. Thats not a woman problem, anyone has to deal with it, regardless of age/gender/race.

But I know a few male nurses, they arent paid differently, but if men and women choose certain jobs on en mass, isnt that a personal choice.
So we then get to pp point about school, its my understanding that girls do drastically better in school than boys at the moment. I dont remember any subject being more gender orientated [except home economics in the 80s] is there any evidence that girls are steered a certain way?

Ohhhh marketing, I did wander through marketing and it was almost all 20-30s young women. But I just cant see how they were forced or steered into it.

OP posts:
Kit19 · 23/08/2019 08:42

@Bodd8 your post about your sister sacrificing her chance of a family to have a career is a perfect example of the patriarchy in action. Think about why that is only ever said about women....

picklemepopcorn · 23/08/2019 08:34

Bodd, you need to read all the posts again. You've missed it.

Re read, then look for the bits about how jobs women do are under valued and underpaid in comparison with jobs men do.
Re read thinking about this:

The quickest way to reduce the pay in any industry is to recruit more women into it.

Men's manual jobs are paid better than women's manual jobs.

Think about who is impacted by the effect having children has on their earning potential- you are unusual, it's almost always women.

Bodd8 · 23/08/2019 08:22

There is some interesting points here. Im slightly cynical about some points, it seems that any undesirable effect on society is attributed to patriarchy. Maybe I still dont understand it fully. Its like this, I only understood the basic premise of communism, until I lived in a communist country and saw [as an outsider] how it affected peoples everyday lives.
So sticking to the work and parenting theme [sorry I do recognise theres a lot more to it] I know first hand that the higher you go the more ruthless it can get. Take my sister for example, she elected not to have children and is in a far higher position than me. She has been truly ruthless in her career and is reaping the financial benefits. Ive had a family and have not move up as far [although Id like to think I am capable] She has sacrificed a family for her career, Ive sacrificed [a significant portion] of my career for family. Neither of us resent each other for it, we accept thats life and you cant have it all.
So isnt this about peoples personal choices?
Maybe Im naive but I believe the market dictates what a position is worth, according to supply and demand for any given skill set or qualification. I dont understand how patriarchy can come into that, surely its an economical status quo? its surely 100,00 -1 of careworkers to CEOs. [I made that up] therefore the CEO gets 3.5 million and the care worker 22,000. Because the supply of care workers is vastly more than CEOs. There are women CEOs, women prime ministers. I cant help but believe that at that level these people have transcended far beyond gender issues and are simply ruthless and willing to sacrifice anything and anyone to get to the top.

So where is the difference? I cant go to the shop and say I want to pay less because Im poor/hungry/man/tall/thin/foreign. The price is the price, for everyone. If you want it you have to sacrifice to get it.
I want to raise my daughter more than I want my career, I work to earn money and thats it, so my career wont move anymore.
The difference I can see is maternity, but that can be shared between partners. My ex refused to share a single day, I had my two weeks paternity and that was it, I had to cut my hours drastically to be involved that first year. But thats irrelevant.

Please dont think Im being argumentative, I genuinely cant see and want to.

OP posts:
OhHimAgain · 23/08/2019 06:57

I can't speak for your ex's current partner but I stood up for my partners ex wife

That's really good to hear ❤

My ex's partner was the OW so I imagine she's heard all sorts of terrible thing about me over the years. This will just be one of them Wink

I'm not allowed to meet her. No doubt because I'm such a 'problen' but, in reality, because she'd realise I'm none of the things he says.

I fail at 'womaning' on so many levels that she has taken on the role of instructing my now young teenage daughter in how to be a woman - how to apply make up; how to be ladylike; how to be subservient, sweet and nice...

All the things I am not and all the things my exh criticised me heavily for. My exh describes his partner as "ever glamorous". He thought I should make the effort to be like a 50s house wife - perfect home; always made up; never controversial all whilst he was lazy, overweight and with poor personal hygiene.

That, OP, is also the patriarchy.

TurboTeddy · 22/08/2019 23:50

And yes they were HER children, they were an accessory to him.

TurboTeddy · 22/08/2019 23:49

CakeAndGin
Seconded, excellent post.

OhHimAgain
I can't speak for your ex's current partner but I stood up for my partners ex wife. I've held down a full time job and managed my own household, it was enough to do without having children to bring up so I didn't need to be a mum to know she was working her arse off and doing a sterling job of raising her children. He didn't reveal his true colours until 6 months after we married, he was a dick, it didn't last.

OhHimAgain · 22/08/2019 23:27

CakeAndGin

Excellent post.

areukiddingme · 22/08/2019 23:13

Name changed FFS

TheInebriati · 22/08/2019 23:13

It is illegal to deny someone legal aid on the grounds of their sex, men can apply. The criteria is strict.

www.mensadviceline.org.uk/help-and-information/useful-links-for-male-victims-of-domestic-violence/

www.gov.uk/legal-aid/domestic-abuse-or-violence

OhHimAgain · 22/08/2019 23:12

More like he didn't want the responsibility of parenting and was more content criticising his ex

That's exactly it.

My exh is quite happy to run me down to his partner if I go out a couple of times a week, or am a half term late with the dentist appointment, or forgot when parents' evening is.

He's more than happy to evaluate me as a parent under those circumstances and find me failing.

But has he ever, even once asked when her dentist appointment is? Or offered to take her? Or taken responsibility and booked it himself? No. Of course he hasn't. Not once. And has he ever known when parents' evening is? Or gone without me reminding him? Or been the one to contact me and remind me that it's parents' evening a week on Thursday? Again, no. Of course he hasn't.

It's easy to be the 'better' parent, theoretically, from afar.

It's a damn sight harder to be the actual parent doing it!

I'm sure his partner thinks I'm a terrible mother for many, many reasons. Yet not once has he taken responsbility for anything.

And society doesn't expect him to.

Yet, if I'd walked out on him and the children, I'd be vilified until the end of time whilst he would be applauded for everything. And if the dentist appointment was a half term late people would say, "yes, but he has to do EVERYTHING. Give him a break... He's an amazing dad."

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