‘Gay Cake’ case now going back to court

I also find comments comparing gay people to paedophiles... incredibly disturbing

me too. Good thing no-one's posted that, then, isn't it?

The trans rights movement is a huge threat to lesbians, and it makes me feel scared and unsafe to keep reading threads in Feminist Chat suggesting that homophobia is great and something we should support

Which threads are these? I haven't seen any comments in FWR supporting homophobia. Comments that Pride has been taken over by TW and fetishists, absolutely - but most people I've seen commenting here feel that conflating fetishism with homosexuality is itself homophobic and reductive, as it suggests that fetish behaviour is an inherent part of being gay.

cheese for the last bloody time - they didn't discriminate against him. Discriminating against him would be refusing to serve him on the basis of his sexuality. THAT DID NOT HAPPEN.

This is also not about freedom of speech but freedom of expression and the court ruled that no-one can be forced to express a view that they do not hold. That would be compelled speech. You appear to be in favour of this.

I don't think anyone should be forced in to compelled speech. I wouldn't make a cake with racist messages, so I can't feel they should be forced to write anything.

Imagine if white supremacists forced a cake to be made then posted it on social media? The bakery would be destroyed. They should be able to refuse to make something. It's not discrimination because they are still selling but being forced to create a specific product is different.

@ cassan- this is not about one point, but many different ones and all depending which view you are taking- Do I want someone to be forced to write sexist racist homophobic offensive messages No- do I want people to be able to discriminate against a person and hide behind religious rights, No I don't either.
@ScrimshawTheSecond There are already restrictions on Freedom of speech - you wouldnt be allowed to swear whenever you wanted and in any place for example - and this is what society governs fair. I heard the phrase your right to swing your arm stops at my nose and I think this is very apt.

And of course, there is that too. CassianAndor

To be clear, I don't agree with this being taken to the ECHR.

Christian belief, that should say.

Exactly LatteLove

placemats and I daresay the bakers support gay rights too. That doesn't mean that they have to change their deeply held belief that marriage is a sacred sacrament between a man and a woman.

This is not about refusal of service on the grounds of religion, since the bakers made and iced the cake, and offered the customer a supply of icing to pipe their own message. This is about an expectation that providing a service should include an element of compelled speech, which is contrary to the right to freedom of expression.

They didn’t unlawfully discriminate
As had been determined by the Supreme Court.

I would downright refuse to ice a cake which conflicted with my personal beliefs. Things like TWAW, abortion is murder, no deal Brexit is amazing etc. Would I fuck write any of these and I don’t see why I should be forced to.

Society decides whats offensive and what isn't, I don't think we are talking about writing whatever you like but if it isn't offensive or illegal than I am not sure we should allow personal prejudice to govern.

I am offended by a pp writing that religion is a fantasy, so can people stop saying it.

Would they have refused to write ' Support Marriage'??

I have no idea and it is irrelevant to the point.

People have the right to hold and express their beliefs. That includes beliefs you or I don't personally agree with. They have the right not to be compelled to state beliefs they do not hold. That is what freedom of thought, conscience and belief means. It is what freedom of speech means. These freedoms are fundamental to democracy. Undermining them is totalitarian.

As long as they do, or do not, write slogans regardless of the status of the person asking for the slogan they are not discriminating. They are simply running their business in accordance with their beliefs. If you, or I, don't like it we can vote with our wallets and go elsewhere. That is our right.

Also barbers are within their rights to refuse to cut female hair.

The next thing will be something you disagree with. But you've already set the precedent that you have no say in it.

This.

I think, sadly, people have taken this purely as a religious standpoint (yet fail to see the irony is being able to say that religion is a big fantasy) and fail to see the bigger picture. It starts with religion, it ends with, well anything.

The hair analogy is not the same, many hairdressers will refuse to cut certain BAME hair as it needs different care, but it is an experience thing rather than discrimination.

I don't think we are talking about writing whatever you like but if it isn't offensive or illegal than I am not sure we should allow personal prejudice to govern.

Deciding if something is offensive is completely subjective. How on earth are you going to do that?

There are a billion things that I find utterly offensive, which very many people say and promote all the time. Men can be women, for one.

It's a moot point whether he is a vexatious litigant. I support gay rights.

Obviously the bakers did not believe in gay marriage which is still not legal in Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK. Abortion is also severely restricted in Northern Ireland. Hopefully this will change because, I think it's a disgrace.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49009056

My advice to him would be to move on, despite being sympathetic to his cause.

They did not refuse to serve the customer because he was gay. IIRC they previously had served the litigant in the bakery. They would have refused to write that message regardless of the sexuality of the customer requesting it.

cheese I really do think you need to go and read up on this case before posting anymore.

Yep let’s see how we would like compelled speech

I think so, so if I was a baker and I would be willing to make a cake that says support marriage, but not willing to include the word gay would that be discrimination? I do feel if you are in the service industry, than you have to put aside your personal bias and serve each customer the same.

If a straight person had asked them to write a cake with support gay marriage on it, they would have refused. Therefore they are treating a gay person and a straight person in exactly the same way.

There is no discrimination because the person is gay. In fact, there is some doubt as to whether they even are gay.

It's got nothing to do with the person requesting the service, and everything to do with what they want the bakers to say.

How about having the words rape is hot? Do you think someone should be able to refuse to write that?

Quite frankly, it feels to me as it all the bloody grown-ups have left the building.

@ Arnold

Would they have refused to write ' Support Marriage'??

Cheese, if you were a hairdresser and someone asked you to shave a swastika into their hair, should you be forced to do that? The principle is exactly the same, no matter what the 'slogan' or message is.

It's not about offence, solely, it's about freedom of thought and speech. Very important principles, no matter which 'side' one is arguing on.