‘Gay Cake’ case now going back to court

I feel like most adults in this country have lost the ability to assess a situation and look ahead to its unintended consequences.

They aren't able to look backwards, either. If this kind of law had existed in the past, how would we have had people who protested the status quo on things like civil rights?

It is using the law as a form of coercion.

Exactly.

This is about a cake . Not the man's right to employment because of protected characteristic. Not about wrongful arrest, not about right to remain in the country, not about denied access to civil rights like equality of marriage or benefits. This is about a man who didn't get the exact words he wanted piped on a freaking cake .

Wasting the time, energy and resources of the European Court to try and overturn the Supreme Court verdict. The only way it's not insane is if it's a serious effort to set some kind of cake related precedent to end freedom of belief as a legal right against LGBT. And even then this shouldn't be allowed.

Why should anyone be allowed to refuse a customer because of religious beliefs?

Because we do not tolerate forced speech in a democracy. Religion is actually a red herring in this case. Being forced to ice a cake with a message that you disagree with is forced speech. If someone went to a baker wanting "gas the Jews" and a swastika on a cake, the baker should be able to refuse, yes? If a baker can be compelled to write "support gay marriage" on a cake, they can be compelled to write Nazi sentiments on a cake.

I repeat, this is about compelled speech, not religion.

He’s not taking the bakery owners back to court constantly and ‘not taking no for an answer’. He actually won, twice. The bakery owners pushed for the third time where he then lost. He is now perusing a case against the UK, not the bakery owners.

Providing a service does not mean you agree with the message or people requesting the service.

In the UK there’s no such thing as a ‘Christian business’ it holds no legal standing.

They didn’t ‘bake the cake and offer him a pen to ice himself’ as you all keep saying either, they took the money, then two days later called him to say they were refusing his order.

I understand why you think it’s dangerous territory if he wins, but it’s also dangerous if he doesn’t.

Discrimination by businesses becoming ‘acceptable’ on a case by case basis? We start giving weight in law to ‘religious beliefs’ in order to discriminate and who knows where it’ll take us. Iran, anyone?

The DUP used this case to try and enact The Conscience Clause into UK legislation, this clause aims to create a legal exemption [within the equality act] on grounds of strongly held religious beliefs.

That seems a pretty dangerous precedent too.

And the people who will be most affected by this?

The poor generally, women, immigrants, ethnic minorities, gay and lesbian people.

Look at Yaniv. Picked on poor immigrant working women. Because they are the ones with the least power - the ones least able to fight back.

The cosy middle classes who are waving this stuff through are not the ones who will bear the brunt of it.

i think it is a form of abuse not to accept no for an answer and to continue to take someone to court until that no is overturned. It is using the law as a form of coercion.

i hope Mr Lee loses as otherwise it is a very dangerous precedent.

Very dangerous.

I total agree that businesses should be able to refuse service. There may be consequences, complaints, future loss of business because of it.

The National Theatre did refuse to serve lesbians as was their right. I do not agree with that decission, I told them what I thought about that decission, I will be less inclined to go there now. They may act differently next time or maube not. That to me is how things should be.

I agree with @Propertyofhood

And if I was a baker and someone asked me to ice a cake with some homophobic or sexist crap, I'd give them this one instead

I couldn't see Fanny's cake but here's one I would eat all in one sitting like.

towards potentially not being able to reject ideas and ideologies that we personally do not believe to be true or right.

Worse than that: to be forced by law to speak and perform lipservice obediently to political ideas and ideologies we personally do not believe to be true or right.

It doesn't get much scarier.

Particularly as it's becoming normal apparently for some to believe that human and civil rights should be only for people you personally agree with, and that this is somehow ok. Despite it being a belief held by the slave traders of the American South, the people who drove Native Americans on to reservations, who deported kids to Canada and Australia, and some big event that happened in Europe in the 1940s.

This is what happens when words = literal violence. First the words become wrongspeak and are banned. The next shift will be the use of physical force as a legitimate response to words you don’t like.

Slight derail but here is a great cake.
Baker not boycotted as far as I know.

My high street bakers supply bread to local shops and businesses, it is what(the few remaining) small bakers often do.

@GCAcademic is 100% spot on!!

Oh god, again with the people not being able to see the unintended consequences. This is not just about a cake or gay marriage. It is a test case which will establish a precedent in law for whether people can be forced to articulate beliefs they do not share. We are moving beyond not being able to discriminate against people, towards potentially not being able to reject ideas and ideologies that we personally do not believe to be true or right.

@FlowerCupcake

As I'm Scottish and have never heard of an Ashers Bakery here I've had a bit of a google and as far as I can tell Ashers Baking Company has 9 outlets in Northern Ireland, and is the company concerned.

www.ashersbakingco.com/

Then there is Ashers Bakery Limited in Nairn, Scotland who seem to be a different, and much older, company.

ashers.co.uk/

So, while not a single independent store, the company in question are not a large chain with stores across Northern Ireland and Scotland, but a small to middling business that appear to operate only in Northern Ireland.

The design for the cake says 'support gay marriage' so... kinda seems like it might be about gay marriage, but that is just a wild hunch

So given that gay marriage is, as you say still not available in NI, if there were a campaign to maintain the status quo would you be happy to be forced to make a cake expressing the opinion that the idea of gay marriage is sinful?

The latest hearings will attempt to challenge that ruling at the highest human rights court in Europe, citing the Supreme Court failed to give appropriate weight to Mr Lee's rights under the European Convention of Human Rights.

Essentially he is saying that his rights are greater than the rights of everybody else. And he wants the ECHR to agree with him.

Entitled? Much?

Northern Irish politics are complicated and volatile, so maybe stop using us as a tool when you don't give us the time any other day of the year?

You're pissed off but don't be daft. Everyones saying how crap it is that gay marriage isn't legal there. They're also saying that this is a massively important case regarding freedom of thought/belief/speech. Start your own thread on what you're passionate about instead of getting mardy about this one.

I do not think Ashers in Scotland is connected!

Oh god, again with the people not being able to see the unintended consequences.

This is not just about a cake or gay marriage. It is a test case which will establish a precedent in law for whether people can be forced to articulate beliefs they do not share. We are moving beyond not being able to discriminate against people, towards potentially not being able to reject ideas and ideologies that we personally do not believe to be true or right.

The design for the cake says 'support gay marriage' so... kinda seems like it might be about gay marriage, but that is just a wild hunch

Which the bakers are entitled not to agree with. Whether we consider their views to be acceptable or not is an entirely different issue to whether an individual should be forced to say something with which they disagree. It's been explained plenty of times very clearly on this thread.

Northern Irish politics are complicated and volatile, so maybe stop using us as a tool when you don't give us the time any other day of the year?

That's interesting. Further upthread [pg 7], it was written :

"In a statement, Mr Lee's solicitor said the latest legal bid "does not directly implicate the owners of Ashers bakery or challenge their right to privately hold religious/political views.

"Instead the case will be against the United Kingdom, a member state of the European Court," the statement read."

So, if the legal issue of same-sex marriage is a devolved issue how can the case be against the UK? Confused now.

But the baker does not approve of gay marriage. Not everybody does, and you can't make them!

The design for the cake says 'support gay marriage' so... kinda seems like it might be about gay marriage, but that is just a wild hunch

@Flowercupcake, this isnt Gays vs Christian's, this is about a law forcing people to endorse views they find deeply objectionable. This law will apply to everyone, not just Christians.