The Biology of Fatherhood

What’s the point of this?
We don’t have control over wether the male biological father stays in the home?
We only can control if we stay or go taking our kids with us or not, no one is going to look at “biological experiment” when making deductions about divorce or living arrangements are they? These decisions are made based on financials or emotions/ kids situation not a quick google to check what some career sociologist ponders whilst trying to get their PhD ... or is it just me?

So how do you think single mothers should be discouraged?

Coyocan Of course there a perfectly good single parents. I assume you thought before you got pregnant and planned for it?

I do struggle with couples who choose pregnancy when on the brink of splitting or who don’t know each other. That’s not medieval, that’s due consideration of a child’s needs. I do that whilst accepting some partners don’t reveal their true colours until a pregnancy occurs - a planned pregnancy whilst in a settled relationship that changes dramatically when pregnancy changed the power balance is a very different thing.
Children shouldn’t be disadvantaged by their parents inconsequential behaviour but neither should we be normalising pregnancy in very new or unstable relationships. That is not wanting to move towards abortion under pressure but greater education that babies are a side effect of sex and a degree of restraint in procreation is good for all.

Let’s discourage thoughtless and selfish single parenting

Oh dear, CherryPavlova, you agree with me and then you attack me and my ilk.

Like many people I was a single parent, by choice in my case as I had already separated when I found out I was pregnant and have no qualms about abortion, and my dd survived my fecklessness.

I'm so glad I don't live in the UK nowadays, some people are quite mediaeval.

Apparently biology matters, unless the poor child ends up with the ‘wrong’ kind of mother.

In reality all children have the misfortune to be born to humans, all of whom are imperfect, and if you are going to judge humans against the same standards of any other species, humans who procreate young, frequently and with different partners are procreating successfully.

If humans could only survive in perfect ‘goldilocks’ conditions we would have died out eons ago.

Ironically I am more ‘crunchy’ than most - breast fed for more than a year, have home eded - but I don’t think there is one perfect way to parent and I think it is very harmful to tell parents that there is.

Fed, clothed, educated, loved. That is what children need and there are many ways to do it.

I am financially..ok. I work part time at a reasonable wage and my ex maintenance.
This means my children are not growing up in poverty and I count this blessing every single day.

In the two years I have been a single mom I have seen the way the benefit system works (never been on benefits in my life, never known).

One reoccurring thought is how amazing the many single mothers are who receive no maintenance at all.

I cannot imagine how hard it would be to have all the unremitting responsibility, the stigma of single motherhood, the guilt of it and raise the children whilst struggling for money.

Again, there is something wrong with our society that we treat the responsible and the committed like outcasts.

Biology may matter, I do believe it does to some degree. However why are we not teaching young boys this? If biology matters and father's matter then why do we barely shrug when the biological father walks away and turn our scorn on the 'feckless' women who stayed??

Women cannot win, the biological father's (generally) retain all the choices and the women (generally) face all the consequences.

If biological father's matter so much, society needs to educate the boys and tell the men!

Coyoacan Absolutely. Shorter working week - we offer a nine day fortnight which is a start. Better stat maternity pay and support for working mothers to have longer maternity leave. An acceptance of the value of good early parenting and improved support for families in challenging circumstances. More sure-start centres, more relationship support, more early intervention and more postnatal support.

A societal move away from the acceptability of feckless parenting too though; let’s stop bringing children up in abject poverty. Let’s discourage thoughtless and selfish single parenting. Of course many single parents do a good job but there’s an awful lot create children without proper consideration about whether they can meet their needs. Couples who decide to dispense with effective contraception within a month or two of meeting each other or not bothering on one night stands are truly irresponsible.

I am a single mother to two children. My status has nothing to do with society telling me I could do whatever I want don't worry about the kids, thats laughable.

I was with their father for 20 years, I desperately tried to keep my family together as I believed that it was better for my children.

I have no idea why seeing as he was cold, disinterested and angry as a father.

Despite all this trying and lowering of boundaries I am still a single mom, I could not have tried to avoid it more.

My husband did not engage or play with the children before he left and he does not now. The image of him running around covered in happy children is ridiculous. Just because he physically could does not mean he ever would.

I am aware of the stigma around single moms but I feel none of the shame, I don't buy into it at all.

I stayed, I accept the restrictions on my life, they never have any overnights with him and very few visits. I am everything to them and I step up through exhaustion, illness and everything else life throws at me day after day.

I feel no shame I am imperfectly incredible as are my children in our happier, calmer home.

The only thing biology counts for here is child maintenance.

If society really cared about the children there would be no stigma attached to the parent who stayed to love and protect them. There would be better childcare provision and flexible working hours.

The stigma would be saved for the people who create human beings and then walk away from them as though they were nothing more than regrettable, irritating pets, overwhelmingly men.

The study by Prof Alan Stein, of Oxford’s Department of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, found that “spending more time in day care centres, over the total period was a predictor of total problem scores”

If that is the case, isn't it time people started campaigning for shorter working hours? For the wellbeing of children and ultimately for the wellbeing of society.

Just jumping in. Talking about the Biology of parents. It is very different.

Women put a huge biological input into motherhood. 9 months gestation. They share their bodies with their babies. What they do, what they eat, what they drink, what they hear so do their babies. They are inhibited by pregnancy, their health can be affected by pregnancy and also by the birth process. They can even risk or lose their lives in pregnancy or giving birth. The number of children they can have is limited because of the huge biological investment in this process. Women also have a more limited time when they are capable of becoming pregnant. For women having children poses significant health risks, is a huge biological undertaking and has a biological clock attached. Also and this is important mothers have certainty that they have a biological connection with their children.

Biologically in contrast Fathers have no health risks associated with becoming fathers. In theory they are not limited in the number of children they have but without DNA testing they can never be sure of paternity.

Bringing up children is difficult. It helps to have help. But the help doesn't have to be the biological father.

I think 40% of children suffer disadvantage because of poor attachment. The Tavistock clinic thinks so too. That’s not to say they will not become functioning adults but that they poor attachment impacts on physical and mental health and on achievement. Even obesity is more likely in older children and adults with poor attachment in infancy.
Given 1:4 have mental illness, 40k youngsters are charge with criminal offences and 40% of marriages end in divorce, I suspect 40% is about right. That is not saying all mental illness or divorce is rooted in attachment disorders but lots are. The impact of poor attachment is often overlooked because it reveals things people don’t want to hear.

It’s not about fathers but children who spend more time in institutional care settings from a young age are more likely to exhibit behavioural problems. The study by Prof Alan Stein, of Oxford’s Department of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, found that “spending more time in day care centres, over the total period was a predictor of total problem scores”. Now that’s not a popular view and many do fine but we need to distinguish between what is a choice for the parents and be truthful about what is better for a baby.

This is a thread which is supposed to be about the biology of fatherhood. Every single one of your posts has been about castigating single mothers.

I'm sorry you're unable to grasp that you're blaming women for men's failings.

Fucking hell Goosefoot. Your misogyny nearly had my eye out

If you think father's telling someone they are no longer attached to who they should date is misogynistic, I'm having a difficult time seeing where you are coming from.

I'm still not sure why you are focussing on the mother's behaviour.

Because as you know most kids live mainly with their mothers, and so that's their home environment. It's also bad when fathers do the same thing if the kids live with them, though it's less of a direct risk, given that girlfriends and stepmothers are not as likely to physically or sexually abuse them.

Really, I am surprised this would be less than obvious.

Feminism is about liberation of women in my opinion. Offering "wisdom" and "advice" to "moms who are dating" doesn't sound liberating at all to me.
People get their sense of what is normal from the society around them. If that society has norms that have bad outcomes, it's a good idea to considering changing those or at least looking at them closely. Serial monogamy in parents is a bad thing for kids, it puts them at higher risk for all kinds of problems.
Feminism get to over-ride all other elements of life in terms of what's important, you can't justify other injustices on that basis. In any case "Do what makes you free, don't worry about your kids"

There is no evidence of a negative impact of living in a single parent household on children’s wellbeing, with
regard to self-reported life satisfaction, quality of peer relationships, or positivity about family life. Children
who are living or have lived in single parent families score as highly, or higher, against each measure of
wellbeing than those who have always lived in two parent families.

www.sheffield.ac.uk/news/nr/single-parent-families-crook-fellowship-gingerbread-1.823016

I'm not sure I understand what's implied by biology. There's obviously an attachment between father and child. Fathers can contribute a great deal to a child's security and well being but parenting isn't necessarily natural it's mainly cultural. There's been a lot of work done in the past on encouraging fathers to support child's education. Libraries have done much in the past (before cuts) to encourage boys reading through fathers involvement. I've worked with working class teenage fathers who were keen to do the best for their child. I've worked with male prisoners on projects reading bedtime stories to their kids on tape.
But all this is true of adoptive parents or stepfathers just as much as biological fathers.

Even if a marriage breaks down that doesn't mean the father child relationship does. It's the child's welfare that counts.

merrymouse Are you seriously suggesting their is no psychological element to carrying, birthing and feeding an infant? Do you not consider this builds a very complex bond?

I'm not saying that it has no impact, but I think it's insignificant compared to the bond created by actually caring for a child after birth. I also don't think breastfeeding is necessary to create a bond with a child. I breast fed my children, but I don't think it created a bond that was intrinsically superior in any way.

association between positive thoughts and feelings about the infant during pregnancy and later interaction with the infant, but only in mothers.

Only mothers can become pregnant, so it would be very surprising if fathers shared the same feelings about being pregnant.

However, some mothers have a very negative experience of pregnancy and birth. There is no universal experience of birth. Fathers, and adoptive parents also clearly form strong bonds with their children and some birth mothers do not (just look at the toxic parent threads).

40% of children nowadays have insecure attachments.. I'm really not sure what to do with that information - do you think 40% of children are doomed because of their insecure attachments? If the number is that high, I'd question whether attachment is that important.

I’m afraid the evidence about the advantages of breastfeeding are irrefutable

There is evidence that breast feeding is better, but the degree to which it is better is not clear and different studies provide different results.

but unpopular with those who chose not to or who see infant feeding as in some way oppressive.

Again, I breast fed my children. I just don't think there is evidence to show that it makes a massive long term difference that overrides all other influences. You seem to discount all the very negative experiences of breast feeding that some women have.

Children of widows have much better outcomes than children of women whose relationship has broken up. There are various possible factors that could contribute to that, but one is the heredity factor I mentioned above

Financial issues will come into. There may have been life insurance- even just a mortgage protection policy will help a lot so the widow owns her home outright. Widows's state pensions aren't hugely significant but there may be a private pension pot which becomes accessible on death.

merrymouse Are you seriously suggesting their is no psychological element to carrying, birthing and feeding an infant? Do you not consider this builds a very complex bond?
There is evidence (Tavistock, Cambridge, Bowlby) that shows association between positive thoughts and feelings about the infant during pregnancy and later interaction with the infant, but only in mothers. There is strong evidence that the prenatal period is vital in the bonding and attachment of infants. Fathers can’t experience the same effect because they cannot physically.

The implications for children are enormous. 40% of children nowadays have insecure attachments. They aren’t getting the parenting they need from anyone. Unsurprisingly , there are factors that increase risk and exacerbate poor attachment. The effects on a child can be lifelong.

Children can attach to fathers but the best indicator for secure attachment is a sensitive and nurturing bond where both parents are also happy in their relationship.
It’s not a feminist issue. It’s a child welfare issue. Increasing numbers of children are suffering because of poor early attachment.

tavistockrelationships.ac.uk/policy-research/policy-briefings/335-relationships-infant-mental-health

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3083029/#!po=15.8537

I’m afraid the evidence about the advantages of breastfeeding are irrefutable but unpopular with those who chose not to or who see infant feeding as in some way oppressive.

"In any case, once someone is a single mother, the father of their kids is hardly the one deciding who they date or live with"

And the mother wouldn't decide who the father of her children dated or lived with. That is generally what happens when the parents of a child are not together. I'm still not sure why you are focussing on the mother's behaviour.

Feminism is about liberation of women in my opinion. Offering "wisdom" and "advice" to "moms who are dating" doesn't sound liberating at all to me. None of the ideas on this thread feel very liberating for women at all - telling women how to live their lives, avoiding single parenting or lesbian parenting or having a baby by sperm donation or parenting with a non-biological dad "for the sake of the children" based on shaky or no evidence.

Children of widows have much better outcomes than children of women whose relationship has broken up. There are various possible factors that could contribute to that, but one is the heredity factor I mentioned above.

Couples who split up are more likely to have at least one member who has characteristics that make functioning in a stable relationship more difficult; and those same characteristics could be passed on to the children to some degree, affecting the children's ability to function (remember this is all statistical tendencies, not absolute outcomes).

Correlation really doesn't necessarily indicate causation.

Fucking hell Goosefoot. Your misogyny nearly had my eye out

Not sure why you are holding mothers responsible if it's the men who are abandoning their children.

Is it? I am sure in the group "single mothers" there are all kinds of situations reflected.

In any case, once someone is a single mother, the father of their kids is hardly the one deciding who they date or live with, so it isn't much good holing him responsible. I can't imagine most women would be very keen on too much input from that direction.

What kinds of things would we want a mom who is dating to think about when making decisions about what to do?

Not sure why you are holding mothers responsible if it's the men who are abandoning their children.

You sound so right until I look at this closer. Most women do not get together with a man thinking it will just be for a little while. Things go wrong and plans backfire.

I'm sure that's true, and yet it's still quite bad for children.

So what does that say about the fact that it happens quite a lot, how would we address that? What kinds of social values or practices might support a situation where that doesn't happen? What kind of common wisdom or advice? What kinds of things would we want a mom who is dating to think about when making decisions about what to do?