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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The mystery of screaming schoolgirls in Malaysia

111 replies

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 13/08/2019 13:07

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48850490

Very interesting article on mass hysteria in Malaysia. Also interesting to see how the problem persists and worsens when the professed cause for the outbreak (like seeing an evil spirit) is affirmed and treated as fact (by performing cleansing rituals), rather than the people involved being encouraged to understand their experiences in the context of reality. Not surprisingly the article points out that this is a phenomenon almost exclusively affecting young girls, that it produces real physical symptoms, that it spreads quickly in places like schools, and that it is most noticeable in countries that have rigid gender roles which limit and oppress women.

What's also fascinating is that the author describes this phenomenon in places like Malaysia with a tone of pity, as if they are a backwards country and nothing like this could possibly happen in our enlightened Western society where science is everything. The TRAs always make out that a belief in biological sex is a form of colonial white supremacy and that anyone questioning gender must be a racist, but honestly could anything be more racist than looking at a country like Malaysia and saying "wow, look at those superstitious people believing that 100s of school girls are really possessed by Jinn, it's obviously mass hysteria caused by a stifling sexist conservative society" while simultaneously believing that the 1000s of school girls suddenly identifying as boys in peer clusters over here are really literally boys (even though that's impossible) and it's definitely not mass hysteria in response to our stifling sexist culture. Obviously only them forriners are susceptible to such delusions, while us Westeners are so progressive and enlightened that anything obviously bonkers happening here must in fact be based solidly in reality.

In addition to all that, the fact that these girls are being subjected to "cures" by faith healers and witch doctors also merits discussion. I've met several women during my time in places like Africa and South America who were taken to witch doctors to be "cured" of various things and it almost always included some form of sexual abuse. One woman said that when she had malaria a group of male faith healers were invited over to tie her up, strip her naked, blindfold her, and take it in turns to spit on her. Even if that isn't the case here the description of the girl being "treated" as "thrashing about wildly on the floor and screaming before being restrained by two men" is really upsetting.

OP posts:
placemats · 13/08/2019 18:52

For the girls it typically means the male secondary sexual characteristics, facial hair and a deeper voice. For males it means breasts. They do not have these, and they get them.

Women have facial hair and deep voices. It doesn't mean they are male.

Males cannot have a female breast. Ever. No matter how much oestrogen they rob of those women in menopause who actually need it have.

Plus to say that sex is assigned at birth, that puberty and secondary sex traits exist, is to deny and eradicate trans existence, you do realise this, don't you?

Goosefoot · 13/08/2019 18:49

DejaVulva

I'm really not sure how to answer you, you seem to be totally missing the point I'm making.

Ereshkigal · 13/08/2019 18:39

While colonising women's spaces and language in a manner that would make General Custer proud.

Absolutely.

SonEtLumiere · 13/08/2019 17:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ereshkigal · 13/08/2019 17:57

Believing in trans rights / that trans women are women and trans men are men is not mass hysteria

Well, that's your view, anyway. I don't see you backing it up. Where is this mysterious innate "gender" coming from that sometimes gets into the wrong body?

Pretty sure the Occam's razor explanation would be that it is likely to be a psychological condition such as body dysmorphia, rather than some kind of internal soul.

So nice patronising tone, but not really much to show except woke adherence to your personal faith belief.

AnyOldPrion · 13/08/2019 17:48

*sex, not sexism....

AnyOldPrion · 13/08/2019 17:48

Ah yes, invaded by a Jinn, or by a soul of the opposite sex.

Social contagion! Tick!

Young girls mostly affected! Tick!

And funnily enough, the right to be treated as the opposite sexism from reality isn’t written into human rights laws, and lets hope this nonsense is long past before that is ever achieved.

DejaVulva · 13/08/2019 17:17

For the girls it typically means the male secondary sexual characteristics, facial hair and a deeper voice.

These are obtained via the ingestion of exogenous synthetic testosterone in doses that are alien to the female XX chromosomed body.

For males it means breasts. They do not have these, and they get them.

These are as a result of the redistribution of fat via the exogenous ingestion of synthetic oestrogen in doses that are alien to the male chromosomed body.

Neither of these courses of action result in natural outcomes. These are outcomes that are alien to those respective bodies.

PurpleCrowbar · 13/08/2019 16:59

Well, not really breasts, though?

Implants or hormone swollen chest tissue. Not yer actual mammary glands!

Agree OP: lots of parallels.

Goosefoot · 13/08/2019 16:57

Please explain "gain others". What does this mean?

For the girls it typically means the male secondary sexual characteristics, facial hair and a deeper voice. For males it means breasts. They do not have these, and they get them.

IdaBWells · 13/08/2019 16:55

Sex is based on an observable, measurable, objective reality.

Gender is not.

On this forum the women are very aware that the one thing we do share in common is our physicality: periods, infertility, pregnancy, miscarriage, stillbirth, live birth, Cesarean, breast feeding and all the many and varied ways we experience the world that is due to our bodily reality. This also includes being sexualized and objectified by men and having to protect ourselves from sexual harassment, rape and all kinds of exploitation and violence based on the different bodies we have from men.

What we don’t share is hairstyles, make-up, clothes, points of view and beliefs about politics, society, culture, language, religion etc. I may meet another woman and all we share in common is our physical identity as an XX chromosome adult human female.

DH just asked me last night why it was completely offensive and unacceptable for a person to claim they are a Native American when they are not a tribal member and have no genetic or historical links to those communities and it is also unacceptable for a person to claim they are black, such as Rachel Doetzal. Yet women are supposed to accept that their lived reality can be summed up in a “feeling” alone. Many women find it very offensive that a person of the opposite sex can sum up their lived experience as just a “feeling”. Gender has no definition other than how a person feels.

As for ROGD we mustn’t forget the intense amount of social media and online communities which can consume a young person who is feeling confused, lonely and looking for meaning. We have lots of evidence of people who no longer believe in the gender identity they and their doctors believed they had for years. It is so clearly a phenomenon with essential social components. While being an female human being is about our bodies and the fact that we become female or male shortly after conception.

DejaVulva · 13/08/2019 16:45

Well, to some extent, they can remove or suppress some, and gain others.

Please explain "gain others". What does this mean?

But the point is that they are trying to change their sexed bodies, and so to say that it's not about that is not accurate.

It is about removing healthy body parts .. because of a state of mind.

Goosefoot · 13/08/2019 16:42

DejaVulva

Well, to some extent, they can remove or suppress some, and gain others.

But the point is that they are trying to change their sexed bodies, and so to say that it's not about that is not accurate.

DejaVulva · 13/08/2019 16:40

The girls are interested in changing their bodies, secondary and even primary sexual characteristics, not just their gender presentation, so I take claims about gender and sex being separate with a rather large grain of salt.

Those girls cannot change their primary or secondary sex characteristics .. they can only have some of them removed. What can never be removed are the chromosomes.

Lazydaisies · 13/08/2019 16:37

Trans people don't change sex, so this is not relevant

Yes I completely agree with this statement. Transwomen do not become women when they transition because that would involve changing sex, which as you quite rightly say is not possible.

Goosefoot · 13/08/2019 16:36

Believing in trans rights / that trans women are women and trans men are men is not mass hysteria.

It maps on quite closely to the phenomena of suddenly claiming to be the opposite sex in teen girls, and other similar things which seem to affect that group in particular as well, which I think is what was being pointed out.

The girls are interested in changing their bodies, secondary and even primary sexual characteristics, not just their gender presentation, so I take claims about gender and sex being separate with a rather large grain of salt.

DejaVulva · 13/08/2019 16:30

Trans people don't change sex, so this is not relevant.

So, how can a man who "transitions" become a woman, when women refers to the sex of one type of human; and how can a woman become a man, when man refers to the sex of the other type of human?

Sex is about gametes. Females [the adult human form of which is labelled women] supplies the large gamete; males [the adult human form of which is labelled men] supplies the small gamete.

placemats · 13/08/2019 16:27

I remember the mass hysteria in Ireland about the moving and weeping statues at a time when Ireland was still very much a Catholic country. Ireland is one of those countries that has passed the GRA along with Malta, another Catholic country.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_statues

Incidentally, Malta has a ban on abortion except to save the mother's life, the only EU Country to have this ban apart from the UK which has the same ban in Northern Ireland but not in Wales, England or Scotland (the UK is still in the EU). Ireland no longer has a ban on abortion.

Michelleoftheresistance · 13/08/2019 16:16

The TRAs always make out that a belief in biological sex is a form of colonial white supremacy

While colonising women's spaces and language in a manner that would make General Custer proud.

It's pure colonialism, right down to separating children from parents to teach them 'better' and 'more progressive' culture (rightthink) and an expressed desire to remove and eliminate those old members of the culture who resist (gulags).

It's a frequent aspect of TRA culture, that they use words that push buttons while not understanding what they mean or of the cognitive dissonance and sheer hypocrisy of holding these conflicting positions. (Colonialism is bad UNLESS it's us doing it) Which is a classic piece of pathology from certain types of personality disorder and social dysfunction: that giving conflicting facts and opinions doesn't matter and isn't seen by the person as relevant since everything said serves the emotional agenda of getting what is wanted.

DejaVulva · 13/08/2019 16:10

I don’t think it correlates to trans as a whole but certainly to ROGD.

Yes, and this is an interesting analysis of all the different forms of GD:

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Lazydaisies · 13/08/2019 15:58

I see the parallel you are speaking of OP, the one of social contagion having a significant impact on rapid onset gender dysphoria in young girls/women. I suspect you are absolutely right that oppressive toxic femininity has a significant role to play in the significant rise ROGD as a phenomenon and yes that could very well fall under a similar psychological process as mass hysteria among believers.

galaxybrain · 13/08/2019 15:54

The definition of 'woman' or 'man' includes people who identify with that gender, even if their biological sex doesn't correspond.

So which group do women without a gender fall into?

PancakeAndKeith · 13/08/2019 15:50

I don’t think it correlates to trans as a whole but certainly to ROGD.

Vasya · 13/08/2019 15:49

and law here recognises that sex can never change.

Trans people don't change sex, so this is not relevant.

DejaVulva · 13/08/2019 15:46

And, Vasya in UK law the two sexes are defined thus:

man: a male of any age

woman: a female of any age

and law here recognises that sex can never change.

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