The mystery of screaming schoolgirls in Malaysia

Then why are you here?

Because I found OP's comparison so absurd from a psychological perspective that I wanted to challenge it. That doesn't mean I'm interested in rehashing old arguments for the 20th time with people who have no desire to listen or change their minds (and to whom I have no desire to listen in return).

As I said, I'm not interested in the debate on here. Then why are you here?

I expect that by the time I am 60, great strides will have been made and acceptance of transgender people will be a fairly settled position.

We do accept that some men prefer to present themselves as feminine according to patriarchal constraints that dictate what is femininity .. that has never been an issue.

The issue is that these men are not women and never can be women.

In the UK our law is very clear about this.

I do not know in what part of the world you live but in the UK we have a very different situation.

Trans people have a whole suite of rights but I suppose for the purposes of this thread the one that is likely to be most contentious is 'the right to be recognised as the gender they know themselves to be, regardless of whether their biological sex corresponds'.

Can you explain what you mean by 'gender' here, @Vasya? You talk about it as though it's an important part of people's personality or identity.

Gender, to me, is an oppressive term which pigeonholes people according certain expectations about how someone of that sex should behave. Is this the same as what you mean by gender?

As I said, I'm not interested in the debate on here. I don't find it helpful or enjoyable. Anyone is, of course, welcome to share their views, but I don't have any desire to be drawn into a discussion of them.

I've read the rhetoric. I've listened to views from all sides. I've read the scientific papers. I'm comfortable in the view I hold, and none of the many posts I've read about transgenderism on mumsnet have done anything except make me feel more confident in them.

Before I joined this site I was fairly oblivious to the debate. I'm a lot more informed now, so while I don't agree with the standard mumsnet position on this issue, I am glad that this site led me down the path of becoming better educated on the issue.

FWIW, I would never want to be complacent and I think there is still a long way to go, but it's pretty clear to me that we are moving in the right direction on this issue. I expect that by the time I am 60, great strides will have been made and acceptance of transgender people will be a fairly settled position.

Believing in trans rights / that trans women are women and trans men are men is not mass hysteria

Well I wouldn't have phrased it that way myself, more a glass delusion of our time, but if it waddles like a duck......

And yes, the failure of western societies to see their own social contagions and barbaric practices in the same light as those of other societies is profoundly racist.

this narrative is IMO quite misleading. IME both men and women in these countries have ridiculous deluded beliefs in spirits, and if you ask people EVERYONE has seen something, or knows someone who has seen something, and this is not at all gender based.

'These countries'? You 'know' this first hand ShootsFruitAndLeaves? I have family in Malaysia and I don't recognise any of this. IMO I find your sweeping generalisation about whole countries insulting and quite frankly bullshit.

@OldCrone

It seems that the experience of men who perform femininity and women who perform masculinity are beyond the wit of some, perhaps?

Gender and sex aren't the same thing and don't always correspond.

Can you expand on this @Vasya? We all know what sex is, but what do you mean, exactly, by gender?

Arguments about how gender is separate from sex fall rather flat when they are attempting to change your secondary sexual characteristics.

Sex = female; gender = learned stereotyped behaviours described as feminine / femininity

Sex = male; gender = learned stereotyped behaviours described as masculine / masculinity

They are modifying their gender from learned behaviour that is femininity to adopted masculinity [and vice versa].

They can never avoid being naturally female or naturally male.

I didn't say sex was irrelevant. I said many people consider gender to be irrelevant.

Gender is irrelevant.

When Malala Yousafzai wasn't allowed to go to school, do you think anyone gave a fuck what her 'gender identity^ is?

When a woman is sat with her feet in stirrups getting an abortion (an abortion that she is actually lucky to get when you consider the worldwide situation) after being raped, is her gender identity really relevant in any way?

When people decide to kill their babies because they are female, do they ask the baby what it's gender identity is?

When a pregnant woman is 'made redundant' whilst on maternity leave, does anyone ask her how she identifies? If they did, would it make any difference if she actually identified as a man?

In the UK one class of human is murdered by another class of human at a rate of 2 per week. Can you take any guesses which classes I am referring to here (clue: it's nothing to do with gender identity).

I could carry on here with many, many more examples, but hopefully I have made my point.

How do you believe gender identity is relevant? Personally, I don't care how someone identifies, or how they present themselves. However, when it comes to making policy and law, I would like to stick to statistics and facts.

My point was that the girls are not actually trying to change their gender, so saying it is about gender not sex is not really the case, even if the girls themselves use that language and tell themselves that.

They are trying to change their sexed bodies.

Arguments about how gender is separate from sex fall rather flat when they are attempting to change your secondary sexual characteristics.

But they haven't changed their bodies in any fundamental natural way.

Many people change the appearance of their bodies via cosmetic surgery. Is that your point?

That the surgery is merely cosmetic?

In which case, I agree. There is no "transition" in any way whatsoever, it is merely a cosmetic modification.

Why not? Why is sex now suddenly irrelevant? Don't you think that's a little bit ffensive to the millions of women who have been oppressed for millenia on the basis of nothing more than their sex? Gender is pretty fucking irrelevant to them!

I didn't say sex was irrelevant. I said many people consider gender to be irrelevant.

this narrative is IMO quite misleading. IME both men and women in these countries have ridiculous deluded beliefs in spirits, and if you ask people EVERYONE has seen something, or knows someone who has seen something, and this is not at all gender based.

the only distinguishing feature is the 'mass hysteria', but otherwise the belief in spirits and such like is not specific to girls at all

Um, no, that wasn't my point. You might try reading back, I said it at least twice.

Quite frankly they didn't want to go to a prom dance where all the girls looked like drag queens.

How do your daughters know they are all on the autistic spectrum though SirVix ?

None of my daughters wanted to engage in what they viewed the disgusting 'Miss England' pageant that was the USA import of THE PROM. Instead they organised with their friends alternative events. Who wants to see your prom dress when you are 26 they said. And they are right. And they are not autistic, unlike their brother.

Mass hysteria can happen in any country in the world.

I know some are of the view that gender is irrelevant and only sex matters. I am not particularly interested in that view, and I have no desire to hear any attempts to justify it.

Why not? Why is sex now suddenly irrelevant? Don't you think that's a little bit ffensive to the millions of women who have been oppressed for millenia on the basis of nothing more than their sex? Gender is pretty fucking irrelevant to them!

that puberty and secondary traits dont exist. Obviously!

I was talking to my daughters yesterday about mass hysteria, social contagion, and the correlation with so many girls suddenly identifying as the opposite sex.

The additional issue is that of the three girls dd1 knows who fit this picture, all are on the autistic spectrum, and one in particular tends to believe she has whatever condition she has most recently heard about or read about online. Eg this week she is saying she has an eating disorder and thinks she is bipolar.
I have also seen this tendency amongst other young people on twitter who are identifying as trans.
I completely agree op, on the reporting of “mass hysteria” in non Western countries.

I'm really not sure how to answer you, you seem to be totally missing the point I'm making.

Maybe that "point" is obscure?

Opps! Ignore my post 18:52

For the girls it typically means the male secondary sexual characteristics, facial hair and a deeper voice. For males it means breasts. They do not have these, and they get them.

Women have facial hair and deep voices. It doesn't mean they are male. Women also have hairy legs, chests and armpits.

Some males have no facial hair, and no chest hair. They are still males.

Males cannot have a female breast. Ever. No matter how much oestrogen they rob of those women in menopause who actually need it have.

Plus to say that sex is assigned at birth, that puberty and secondary sex traits exist, is to deny and eradicate trans existence, you do realise this, don't you?