The mystery of screaming schoolgirls in Malaysia

@clitherow

I appreciate your thoughtful and considered response but I have to disagree with you

I have significant 1st hand personal experience going back to the late 1980s / early 1990s when women in the lesbian feminist communities I knew, including a few friends, started to believe that they had suffered incest, child sexual abuse and SRA.

Some were in therapy with therapists from the Women's Therapy Centre, several were seeing therapists who practiced "re-birthing" and some were seeing Gestalt therapists. Some were not seeing any therapists at all but suddenly announced that they had "recovered" memories of incest / SRA

Social contagion was definitely a causal factor IME

I've heard plenty of crowing from people who say that if I refuse to do this labour for them, it's proof that I can't produce the resources I've alluded to.

If I want to persuade someone that my arguments are right, I will post information and links to articles. If I refused to do this, others would, quite reasonably, assume that I did not if fact have the evidence I claimed to have.

How am I supposed to find these articles you're referring to if you don't post any information about them - authors, titles, journals... If you refer to say 'a paper by Smith and Jones, published in the Journal of Waffly Crap in around 2016', I have a chance of finding it. If you just say 'there's lots of information out there, go and look for it' - where do I start?

I'll go off now and see if I can find a free link to the article mentioned by hoodathunkit.

The extremely controversial organisation the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation (ISSTD), an organisation that promotes conspiracy theories about satanic ritual abuse and dissociative identity disorder / multiple personality discover and other new versions on dissociative disorders (there seems to be a new one every few months) has created a new Special Interest Group (SIG)

July 22, 2019
Special Interest Groups

Potential New SIG: Trauma and Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming (TGNC) Experience

link (cached for safety)

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190814080639/news.isst-d.org/potential-new-sig-trauma-and-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-tgnc-experience" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20190814080639/news.isst-d.org/potential-new-sig-trauma-and-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-tgnc-experience
I am extremely concerned about this and would recommend that GC readers keep a careful watch on the activities of the ISSTD and its various international subsidiaries including the ESTD

Apologies for pointing out the obvious, but satanic ritual abuse and the resulting diagnoses of DID/MPD are commonly diagnosed using various models of "body psychotherapy”.

Promoters of SRA conspiracy theories and new age therapists involved in treating them claim that “the body remembers what the mind cannot” and use methods including but not limited to “eco-therapy” “body psychotherapy” (often incorporating massage), “muscle testing” aka kinesiology, “Emotional Freedom Technique”, chiropractic interventions and other So Called Alternative Medicines (SCAMs) to “release repressed memories of abuse”. There is no peer reviewed evidence that repressed memories of abuse can be released or recovered during massage or body psychotherapy. None.

Years ago the BBC broadcast a dramatised account that they claimed was based on real experiences of satanic ritual abuse but that was actually based on false memories generated by body psychotherapists. That drama was called May 33rd. The narrative involved a body therapist who treats a young woman for mysterious pains and she then recovers memories of satanic ritual abuse and is diagnosed with multiple personality disorder. I would love to see a video of this if any clever person can find it.

So the point I am making is that when we consider women (and it is usually but not always women) who suffer from a range of mysterious physical pains and symptoms (sometimes including non-epileptic seizures) and associated emotional problems and anxieties for which there is no apparent medical cause, in days of yore these women would have been diagnosed with somatisation and conversion disorders or hysteria.

Nowadays, well we are all painfully aware of what can happen to these women in today’s climate of insanity.

I would genuinely like to see some of the research or articles you are referring to

If you have mumsnet, you have google. I'm not doing your work for you.

Why would I spend time and energy on collating these resources for you when as we both know full well you will never accept their conclusions?

If you were genuine about wanting to engage with these resources, you would find them yourself (as I did, when I first started educating myself on the trans debate).

But the truth is, you have no intention of doing so. I doubt you would even read anything I posted, and if you did it would be for the sole purpose of finding ways you could delegitimise or dispute it.

I've heard plenty of crowing from people who say that if I refuse to do this labour for them, it's proof that I can't produce the resources I've alluded to. But I've posted earnestly posted information on this site before, and never even once received a thoughtful response to it. I don't expect people to agree with what I say, but I would at the very least expect a genuine engagement. It never happens. So I've stopped doing it. It's a waste of my time.

There's a trope that comes up a lot on mumsnet's FWR boards, that if someone won't have an argument with you then you're being 'deplatformed' or debate is being stifled. It's clearly just an emotive lie. You can debate until the cows come home with anyone who is willing, but you're not entitled to demand it and then feel aggrieved when the other person isn't interested. Nobody owes you a debate (and particularly when it's not actually a debate you're interested in). You aren't being 'deplatformed' because someone isn't interested in listening to you.

Of course the main comparison for the screaming schoolgirls in the OP is the satanic panic and the various lurid tales of satanic ritual abuse.

No, I'm afraid that's not the case. Mass psychogenic illness is a real phenomenon that is not yet understood. There have been spontaneously arising cases in Tanzania, Nottinghamshire, North Yorkshire, Peru and many others. It is a largely unconscious phenomenon that affects mainly girls.

The Satanic ritual abuse panic seems to have been arisen spontaneously but was maintained by the mistaken beliefs and then practices of social work and other professionals.

The nearest thing to the contagious spreading of trans 'feelings' amongst especially young girls is the phenomenon of anorexia in Hong Kong as described by James Davies in his book Cracked - Why psychiatry is doing more harm than good

@ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving

Mad props to you

You have provided an example of something I have been working on for some time and I was reflecting on the best way to explore some issues, but as you have started this thread I will post on here

I have very limited time and so will post a few things on here for readers to explore from time to time when I have a few minutes to spare

Firstly, and this is incredibly important, gender dysphoria (previously known as "gender incongruence”) was treated until very recently as a conversion disorder (in other words as hysterical conversion or hysteria).

If any reader has a share token or access tp the BMJ I would love to know the full contents of the letter in this link
Unequal treatment of transgender people

BMJ 2016; 353 doi: doi.org/10.1136/bmj.i2329 (Published 26 April 2016)Cite this as: BMJ 2016;353:i2329
Zoë Playdon, emeritus professor of medical humanities
University of London, London WC1E 7HU, UK

(emphasis mine)
Concern is growing that new General Medical Council guidance does not provide transgender people with the same consent to psychological therapies as other competent NHS patients. As Barrett says, being trans is not a mental health problem.1 It was first constructed as one in the 1960s by conversion therapists,2 …

www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2329.full

Of course the main comparison for the screaming schoolgirls in the OP is the satanic panic and the various lurid tales of satanic ritual abuse.

There is so much more to say about this but I am very pushed for time

This thread has thrown up some similarities to social media, where people who support the TRA beliefs, refuse to debate, then block or deplatform.
This is indeed what happens in fundamentalist religions, or cultures where Shamanism and witch doctors abound.

So why would I waste my time on it?

It may be more productive to ask yourself this question.

q

Vasya

You don't know who is here - I am still very open to debate on the trans/sex/gender issue. I am sick of ploppers tbh.

But as Ereshkigal said, all you have done thus far is basically the equivalent of coming onto a thread and saying 'I believe in God, I know none of you lot do, but you are all wrong, but I'm not going to tell you why I believe in God because I know I will never persuade you so there is no point'.

So I still don't really understand why you are here?

I would genuinely like to see some of the research or articles you are referring to.

But we both actually know that there is nothing I can say or do to persuade you

Is this an admission of the weakness of your arguments?

Of course in reality it is genderists trying to say sex either doesn't exist, does change or it is transphobic to mention it. Sometimes the same person saying all three depending on what argument they're trying to make at the time.

You and I both know there is literally nothing I could say, no article I could cite, no research I could point to, that would lead you to reconsider your position.

Is this the phenomenon known as DARVO? Or just plain old projection?

It's a bit much when someone says something, refuses to back it up, but blames the people they've said it to.

Then keeps repeating this, but claims it's not a waste of time.

It's a complete waste of time.

Interesting turnaround from vasya there. I don't say gender identity is irrelevant, if you have one you're welcome to. It might be relevant to whether you buy clothes from the women's department or the men's department for example. All we said is gender doesn't overwrite sex. Single sex provision is in almost all cases for obvious reasons single sex not single gender. Single gender provision is not even remotely practical for most uses given the proliferation of different genders out there. But if you want to hold a women and trans feminine dominoes evening you should be free to, as long as this is made clear to all. (Then wait for the non binary people to screech about being excluded.)

You and I both know there is literally nothing I could say, no article I could cite, no research I could point to, that would lead you to reconsider your position.

You cannot possibly know this about everyone else posting here. Please post a single article which you believe to be compelling and I will read it and discuss it with you.

So why would I waste my time on it?

Well, I personally, have no idea why you are. Only you know that.

So no debate then?

Yes, I made it clear I don't want to debate with you. As a general rule I don't find it helpful to debate with people who aren't open to listening. You and I both know there is literally nothing I could say, no article I could cite, no research I could point to, that would lead you to reconsider your position. You might protest otherwise because it suits you to pretend that if sufficiently compelling evidence was presented you would be receptive to it - that way you can maintain the pretence that you're open to alternative ideas. But we both actually know that there is nothing I can say or do to persuade you. So why would I waste my time on it?

'Right then. Another day another bit of racist bullshit. “These countries”. Which countries? The ones which aren’t European?'

I live in Indonesia; they share a language, religion and much culture with Malaysia, this is my experience from talking to people.

DejaVulva

For goodness sakes, am not saying anything about whether people can change their sex. Please read what I have written instead of projecting what you think I am saying.

I know the bloody difference between gender and sex.

Quite. As michelle prophetically pointed out up thread.

Which is a classic piece of pathology from certain types of personality disorder and social dysfunction: that giving conflicting facts and opinions doesn't matter and isn't seen by the person as relevant since everything said serves the emotional agenda of getting what is wanted.

Because I found OP's comparison so absurd from a psychological perspective that I wanted to challenge it.

But you didn't. You just stated your personal faith belief.

As I said, I'm not interested in the debate on here. I don't find it helpful or enjoyable. Anyone is, of course, welcome to share their views, but I don't have any desire to be drawn into a discussion of them.

Lol!

I have to say this is a new style of plopping I've not seen before though.

That doesn't mean I'm interested in rehashing old arguments for the 20th time with people who have no desire to listen or change their minds (and to whom I have no desire to listen in return).

So no debate then?

We all know that no human can ever change their sex ... so yes, there is no debate about that.

We also all know here that no-one is ever compelled to collude with the delusions of any other person that their sex can be changed.

We also know here that 'gender' is a set of prescribed behaviours, enforced by patriarchy that men should behave in particular ways and that women should behave in articular ways and that women should behave in particular ways.

None of those behaviours is indicative of anyone being able to change their sex. What is indicative is that some people role play those behaviours.

ShootsFruitAndLeaves

this narrative is IMO quite misleading. IME both men and women in these countries have ridiculous deluded beliefs in spirits, and if you ask people EVERYONE has seen something, or knows someone who has seen something, and this is not at all gender based.

Right then. Another day another bit of racist bullshit. “These countries”. Which countries? The ones which aren’t European?