The mystery of screaming schoolgirls in Malaysia

This is something I have been thinking about for a while, just thinking aloud...

Any readers interested in mass hysteria and the link to psychosomatic illness and to social-political issues including FGM and other genital mutilations would do well to read up on the Zar (also spelled Zaar) cults. There are obvious comparisons to be made between spirit possession experienced in the Zar cults and DID/MPD. There are also issues that resonate with the trans issue.

I am very far from an authority on Zar cults however I understand that FGM is a feature of at least some of the societies in which the Zar cults flourish.

I used to have an academic anthropological book about Zar cults and FGM many years ago. I gave it away and cannot for the life of me remember what it was called. My memory of the description of the Zar rituals was that they consisted mostly or exclusively of women and were lead by a female spiritual leader. The Zar rituals consisted of drumming, singing and dancing parties that would go on all night over several days. Vast quantities of cannabis were consumed and all involved entered a state of ecstatic trance. These rituals were created to pacify djinn that possessed people (mostly women) and during the rituals the possessed woman was the centre of attention for several days and nights. The possessing djinn would demand gifts. In the book I read examples of gifts were beautiful dresses and perfume. Once he djinn’s demands for attentions and expensive gifts had been satisfied the djinn would stop causing illness in the affected woman and life would return to normal until such time that the djinn became agitated and started making demands again.

There are aspects of this phenomena that resonate with both DID/MPD and the trans issue. People diagnosed with DID and / or with gender dysphoria may experience oppression and may suffer from emotional distress but some also receive all manner of gains resulting from their diagnosis.

The gains obtained by these patients include but are not restricted to: state benefits, help with housing, regular psychotherapy / support groups with others who share their diagnosis, the permission to keep pets as therapy animals and access to expensive medical treatments denied to others whose illnesses / diagnoses are less exciting and fashionable. Many people who identify as trans or as having DID gain significant attention, support and a degree of fame via social media. There is an industry of people generating financial revenue and receiving gifts from YouTube subscribers and there are many videos of people claiming to have DID unwrapping gifts sent from subscribers and well-wishers. Some of these social media accounts generate significant revenue for their owners.

some videos of interest

The Zar cult in Sudan
The anthropologist in this video describes how the Zar cult and rituals provided a supportive environment in which disempowered, marginalised people (mostly women) who suffer from psychosomatic illnesses can gain relief from their symptoms

Zar cult in Iran (males and females involved in these Zar video clips). The issue of mysterious / unexplained illnesses that doctors cannot cure is raised early in the video. At 16.28 a male sufferer of apparent psychosomatic illness and the kind of dissociative states / dissociative amnesia typically described in DID/MPD describes his illness and his involvement with the Zar. In the final footage this young male is shown shaking and trembling uncontrollably during the Zar ritual. This shaking resembles “hysterical tremors”
WARNING:
the video starts with approx 45 seconds of loud, piercing noise so you may want to turn the volume down , also there is footage of animal sacrifice (chicken) between 13.50 - 14.00

Here is a video of a professional Iraqi dancer incorporating traditional Zar moments into a performance.

I included the above video as it demonstrates very clearly dance moves found in African and Middle Eastern Zar dances.

It is interesting to compare some of these moves with archival footage of hysteria patents.

In this video of a hysteria ward in 1935 the video begins and ends with what doctors used to all the hysterical arc or hysterical bow, an obviously ecstatic / sexual position with the head thrown back and the spine deeply arched.

It is interesting to compare the dance moves with this heartbreaking video of shell-shocked soldiers from WW1. The video contains an interesting example of hysteria transmitted via imitation / social contagion at 6.00 however the whole video is interesting as it demonstrates unusual, dance like gaits considered at the time to be indicative of hysteria

To conclude re Zar cults, one does not need to be particularly intelligent or sensitive to appreciate how women in a deeply patriarchal society would be drawn to a cult in which they get to party, sing, dance, get high and receive desirable gifts from time to time. All the women (and more rarely men) have to do is manifest the illnesses and the djinn and the ecstatic dancing and gifts will soon follow.

I have started to wonder whether the various quack therapists, peer support groups and social media networks focussing on transgender issues and SRA/DID/MPD operate as a kind of Zar cult providing relief to modern hysterics.

@ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving

Good to be on board :)

@clitherow
I'm not really sure that I have anything constructive to contribute except to say that the mass psychogenic illness highlighted in the OP and trans ideology obviously share one stark thing in common. They both relate to the relationship between the mind and the body.

Absolutely.

As do allegations of satanic ritual abuse, which very commonly arise from various models of “body psychotherapy”.

People who suffer unexplained pain, fits / seizures and other physical symptoms would have, until very recently, been diagnosed with hysteria.

Nowadays they may be given a copy of the notorious book The Courage to Heal and / or one of its spin off titles which states that unexplained physical symptoms indicate child sexual abuse that has been forgotten by the mind yet retained in the body at a cellular level and can be recovered via psychotherapy. I am astounded at how many rape crisis centres are using quack therapies to treat survivors of rapes and sexual assaults. This terrifying situation has very likely contributed to innocent people being jailed for horrific sexual crimes they did not commit and will also, inevitably, result in real sexual predators evading justice.

Back to hysteria...

A surprisingly educational perspective on hysteria, including its symptoms and manifestations (including delusions of sexual violations) can be found in the absolutely wonderful silent film, banned for many years, Haxan (1922).

This film is worth watching in its entirety, however for those interested in hysteria I would suggest initially watching from 1.21:00 until the end, and then settling down to watch the entire film when you have a couple of hours to spare. This will not spoil the film as there are many fascinating themes with multiple areas of interest that do not need to be viewed in a linear manner.

This link is for the Swedish Film Institute restored version which is subject to copyright, however it is worth noticing that the film itself is in the public domain and non-restored clips and sections available via the Archive and on youtube that may be freely used by activists and filmmakers to create their own educational videos. For those wishing to use a soundtrack the Archive has a section on music recordings that are either in the public domain and can be used freely or are subject to non-commercial use.

I think you understand that we can't change our physical beings without drastically altering our psychological beings and that those people who want to exercise control over others realise that by destroying who we really are as rooted in our bio-psychological makeup, they create a rootless human being who will be so much easier to control. Perhaps in this world the state and the corporation will become the sole psychological and emotional source of support - the person will be completely reliant on these artificial constructs.

Actually what I want more than anything is for readers to feel curious and to feel inspired to think creatively about these very complex and difficult issues.

Your post shows that this is exactly what you are doing and so I would seriously encourage you to stay thinking. I have some further thoughts on your thoughts that I will share a bit later, as usual, pushed for time today. :)

I have developed a number of provisional hypotheses regarding what might be happening re the transgender agenda. My intent is not so much to persuade others that what I am positing is correct as to inspire others to create their own speculative hypothesis and, by doing so, to retain and develop the capacity to think.

Provisional hypotheses are not evidence of real things, but when confronted with a confusing, overwhelming barrage of completely irrational events it makes absolute sense to develop multiple provisional hypotheses and to then, over time, either nullify or validate them as evidence becomes available.

Later today I will share a hypothesis or 2 with you now that relate to the sudden emergence and acceptance of pseudo-scientific / illogical and blatantly false narratives regarding the transgender issue.

Please do not think that I am in possession of “the truth”. I cannot make any such claim. However I would like to share some hypotheses so that, over time we can prove or disprove them. Also I completely accept that I am not omniscient and there are many things I accept I do not know.

Please accept my apologies for not replying sooner, I desperately needed some time away from the computer and a rest from all of this. I have been working very hard on this issue and sometimes I get exhausted.

Will be back later :)

placemats they are all girls she knows who have an Autism diagnosis, it isn’t just her guessing or assuming.

I honestly don't know why people come and do what you are doing. All it does is show up to outsiders (and we know there are a lot of lurkers) that you don't have any argument.

This. It's really quite revealing of that. Anyone would be forced to conclude from the lack of evidence or rational argument for transgender ideology from its supporters that it really is just a faith based belief.

Would you promise to actually engage with them and not simply disregard them on the basis that their foundational premise is different to yours and therefore you can disregard anything they write?

Why do you assume people don't already, and haven't already, done this?

It was me that posted in haste hoodathunket

I'm not really sure that I have anything constructive to contribute except to say that the mass psychogenic illness highlighted in the OP and trans ideology obviously share one stark thing in common. They both relate to the relationship between the mind and the body.

It is clear that you have had experiences in this regard that most people on here will probably not be able to relate to. It is unfortunate that most people believe what they have been told at school, by their parents and on the media. They think that what is taught in universities is the truth.

This board is as it is because the trans ideology has begun to show some people that you cannot trust the 'authorities' to tell the truth. But still, most posters think that this is an aberration - that one day things will return to 'normal'.

How often do people use the phrase 'has the tide turned yet?' or assert that one day in the future we will look back at this as just a moment of madness. They cannot accept that we are witnessing a moment in history when humanity has decided they are going to break free of the bonds of biology. All we need is the technology to make our dreams come true. This is what is being worked upon now.

On another thread, one woman is claiming that women will be free when we are free of the bonds of our biology - when artificial wombs reduce motherhood to ashes. Someone pointed out that the bonds between a parent and child are fiercely strong and perhaps people don't want to lose this. These bonds, our capacity for love and our very identities are rooted in our biology. Also, people who demand that one group of people be freed from their biology have absolutely no right to demand that others are not given this right: they have no right to tell men that they cannot become women.

I think you understand that we can't change our physical beings without drastically altering our psychological beings and that those people who want to exercise control over others realise that by destroying who we really are as rooted in our bio-psychological makeup, they create a rootless human being who will be so much easier to control. Perhaps in this world the state and the corporation will become the sole psychological and emotional source of support - the person will be completely reliant on these artificial constructs.

I think that our late democratic societies are becoming more like giant cults and anything that can be used to make people more compliant will be used.

If I am reading your posts incorrectly, I think that you are trying to warn people about what is happening based on your own experiences at the 'micro' level as it were. I think I hear what you are saying but much of this is very far out of other peoples' experiences. But I think that many 'lurkers' have had experiences like the ones you outline and I am sure you have helped a lot of people. I have found a lot of your links very interesting and useful.

Middle age nuns refers to nuns in the Middle Ages not Middle aged nuns

I am not particularly interested in that view, and I have no desire to hear any attempts to justify it.

Did you mean to be so rude?

Middle age nuns refers to nuns in the Middle Ages not Middle aged nuns 😜

Mass psychogenic illness is a real phenomenon that is not yet understood. There have been spontaneously arising cases in Tanzania, Nottinghamshire, North Yorkshire, Peru and many others. It is a largely unconscious phenomenon that affects mainly girls.

Recently listened to the audible series Hysteria which details many instances of this through the ages. From meowing middle age nuns to modern day hiccuping school girls. Very common in female only living quarters such as convents or boarding school. Worth a listen if you're an Audible member.

I can see what the Op is saying about how a social contagion is treated so differently when happening to predominantly westerners compared to Eastern cultures.

also

highly relevant

please be warned, very disturbing photos

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsy

This is also interesting

skepticalinquirer.org/newsletter/skeptic-raping_demon_of_zanzibar/

I have so much more to say on this but time will not permit right now

@clitherow

Thanks for the clarification :)

I study cults and coercive control within criminal networks so the issue of social contagion is both fascinating and relevant to my interests

There are many examples of people believing all kinds of apparently fantastical, hysterical narratives and I think that very often these beliefs arise from multiple causal factors

The mind / body connection is central to my research and interests. It is fuzzy territory incorporating liminal elements of medicine, philosophy, psychotherapy and multiple speculative hypotheses. Possibly for this reason the mind/body connection is something used by cults and quacks to influence people. They claim that “the body has its own wisdom” and “the body does not lie”. Of course it is up to the therapist / shaman / psychic to interpret the messages from the body, so although people may believe that their body is sending them a message the message may become convoluted in the translation.

Some of the sinister, misogynist cults that infiltrate / appropriate feminism and the CSA survivor movement promote the idea that the body may be in need of liberation from invisible parasitic entities in the reproductive organs. They also posit that one body can contain multiple personalities or “alters”. With the advent of the internet and of social media these apparently ludicrous ideas can be discerned spreading across accounts and websites in the same way that the spread of disease can be monitored using and epidemiological perspective.

It is apparent to me that there are multiple causal factors but that social contagion is a significant factor.

I just wanted to share an example of another situation in which a significant population of apparently intelligent people people share a belief that the body harbours multiple entities, has forgotten truths that should be remembered and that the body is contaminated with invisible parasites that need to be evacuated

vimeo.com/272691039

Apologies for posting in haste, hope this makes sense :)

What the opening post actually said:

"believing that the 1000s of school girls suddenly identifying as boys in peer clusters over here are really literally boys (even though that's impossible) and it's definitely not mass hysteria in response to our stifling sexist culture.*

What Vasya claimed it said in her first post:

"you're trying to draw a parallel which suggests that anyone who believes these things is delusional / susceptible to peer pressure / suffering from some kind of cognitive malfunction"

It's obvious that Vasya either didn't read the opening post properly, or deliberately misconstrued it. Either way, the thread ended up derailed. Yet Vasya's posts have got increasingly self-righteous about the impossibility of discussing issues on here.

Vasya, if you want an honest discussion, it's a good idea to actually carefully read what the OP says, and respond to that, not to what you have arbitrarily decided that they are "trying to suggest". Anyone reading this thread from the beginning can see what you did there, so your accusations against other posters really ring hollow I'm afraid.

I'm not interested in the debate on here. I don't find it helpful or enjoyable. Anyone is, of course, welcome to share their views, but I don't have any desire to be drawn into a discussion of them.

Says the person posting their views and then discussing them. Largely from the position of 'I'm right because I say so, #nodebate". Really not convincing or engaging, so fairly pointless really.

Fairies exist btw. I say so. And I'm not interested in your views, you're all stupid and in 50 years you'll see for yourselves there are fairies everywhere . So shut up whining that you're being forced by law to dance around toadstools naked at midnight, tell your children that fairies are everywhere and will eat them if they're naughty, and chant that you do believe in fairies, and that it's messing with your personal beliefs and your religions and your disabilities and your right to freedom of belief. You throwbacks are just bigots who ought to be forced to maypole dance for the rest of your sad lives.

Would you promise to actually engage with them and not simply disregard them on the basis that their foundational premise is different to yours and therefore you can disregard anything they write?

If you post peer reviewed articles in reputable scientific or medical journals I'll read them and engage with them. I won't necessarily agree with them.

This is why I think there's little point in debate; if you are absolutely unwilling to accept that gender is a real and legitimate thing, and I am absolutely unwilling to accept that it isn't, what hope is there of a discussion leading to anything?

I believe that gender is a harmful social construct. You're right. If you want to present it as a positive entity, I cannot agree with you. I think the harm that we are seeing in children now, who are being led to believe that their 'gender' is an important part of their identity, is proof of its harm.

If you have mumsnet, you have google. I'm not doing your work for you.

Oh come on. The posters on this board have spent literally thousands of hours collecting and collating articles, blogs, news stories, research, links, screenshots, statistics, quotes from other threads etc on this subject. They have done this so that they can produce a robust argument that is backed up with fact.

And you won't post one article because 'you have google. I'm not doing your work for you'

I fear I know all too well that you will simply say something like 'that writer talks about gender and gender is just a religious belief like souls so their view can be disregarded'.

Well yes, if you are going to rely on a particular premise for your argument and that premise is not based in fact, then you have to back up the premise as well as the argument.

It's how this stuff works.

I have had a couple of good debates with posters on this subject, who have actually stuck around and formed an argument. However, I have not been convinced by their argument. This does not mean I haven't listened or havent engaged, it means that I haven't agreed with what they have said

But most seem to do what you have done, and use a lot of words to say nothing useful at all.

I honestly don't know why people come and do what you are doing. All it does is show up to outsiders (and we know there are a lot of lurkers) that you don't have any argument.

How am I supposed to find these articles you're referring to if you don't post any information about them - authors, titles, journals... If you refer to say 'a paper by Smith and Jones, published in the Journal of Waffly Crap in around 2016', I have a chance of finding it. If you just say 'there's lots of information out there, go and look for it' - where do I start?

I know you don't owe me anything, just as I don't owe you anything, but would you faithfully promise to engage properly with the information I post? Would you promise to actually engage with them and not simply disregard them on the basis that their foundational premise is different to yours and therefore you can disregard anything they write?

I fear I know all too well that you will simply say something like 'that writer talks about gender and gender is just a religious belief like souls so their view can be disregarded'.

This is why I think there's little point in debate; if you are absolutely unwilling to accept that gender is a real and legitimate thing, and I am absolutely unwilling to accept that it isn't, what hope is there of a discussion leading to anything? Do you really think we can achieve anything by debate when we start from propositions which are antithetical to each other? Do you think there's any benefit in my linking articles which also start from a foundational proposition that you entirely reject? If you're truthful (and I hope you wouldn't pull the very patriarchal trick of asking me to do a lot of labour that you aren't interested in the results of) I think you would probably accept that there isn't any value in that activity.

And the reason I think that, is that if you were genuine in your desire to engage with pro-trans resources, you would simply find them yourself. It's a bit disingenuous to claim you 'don't know where to start' when you have the internet at your fingertips. You could google the questions you're asking me ('What is gender?' / 'Gender or sex?' / 'diagnosing mass hysteria') and find resources to assist you. The fact that you won't shows me that you aren't coming from a position of wanting to understand and engage. What you actually want is for me to 'prove' myself. And I don't have to prove myself to you.

And in typing that last sentence, I'm reminding myself that it's true, and that I don't need to be on this thread. Let's be honest - you're never going to respect me anyway, so I shouldn't waste my time trying to justify why I don't argue with the mumsnet GC troop. And you shouldn't waste your time trying to make me. We both have better things to do with our lives!

You're quite right, Vasya, that nothing you could post would convince me that female people can become male, that men really ARE women once they've said so, or that we should totally ignore the differences between the sexes.

I don't think you believe any of that either, though, on reading your posts, so it must be a question of definitions. Which bit are people getting wrong that could be changed by more research?

I'm perfectly willing to believe that some people's minds make it psychologically impossible for them to accept their actual sex. The inner image we build up by reading, and looking at others, and slotting ourselves into the identity we feel is right for us, is very important to many people. I can see that gender ID is crucial to some people.

(I could never be a beautifully groomed and made-up socialite, or a loud uproarious type in boob tube and mini-skirt, or a tie-dyed hippy. It 'isn't who I am', and I have a very visceral reaction to 'wrong me' in mirrors.)

But one's actual sex matters to others.

You aren't being 'deplatformed' because someone isn't interested in listening to you.

Missed the last line of your post. I understand now. You're not interested in any viewpoints other than your own. I think there's a word for people like you.

bigot
/ˈbɪɡət/
noun
a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.

If you were genuine about wanting to engage with these resources, you would find them yourself (as I did, when I first started educating myself on the trans debate).

But the truth is, you have no intention of doing so.

Who the hell do you think you are, that you are so sure of everyone else's motivations and intentions?

If you really wanted people to 'engage with these resources', you'd post at least one of them on here. I assume from your unwillingness to do so, that either they don't exist, or you don't really want to discuss them.

I am willing to discuss them, you are not.

Social contagion was definitely a causal factor IME

Sorry - wasn't clear. I absolutely agree with you that social contagion was a factor both in the circumstances you describe and in trans ideology. What I think is that the mechanism of this contagion are poorly understood. I think the Satanic abuse panic had some peculiar elements that were very specific and very localised.

The incidents Davies describes are more, sort of, global. He identifies how the drugs companies have identified how social contagion can be used to manipulate whole populations - he specifically highlights how they engineered the perception of depression in Japan.

Wasn't criticising what you were saying - just trying to say that whole area of social contagion deserves a closer look.

Thanks OldCrone

Much appreciated :)

I am now running very late and have to go but will read later

Success, hoodathunkit

Unequal treatment of transgender people

I thought this would only give me a preview of the first page, but it's only a letter, not an article, so it's only one page long.

If you search using google scholar, and when you find the article you want, click on 'All X versions', you often get a pdf or other free link on a site other than the publisher's site.