Irish feminists; what the hell is happening over there?

Hmmmm, MarDhea, I find your post a bit misty-eyed with regard to Irish history.
I grew up in as traditional an area as you could imagine. Our neighbours literally used a horse and cart for many years after buying a car. Many neighbours had outdoor toilets, rural lifestyle, GAA, priest for Sunday dinner (not sure how many other cliches I can stuff into the sentence).
I still argue that the power of "Mammy" derives pretty much entirely from her power as the rule-enforcer.

You see, I don't think she is being misty-eyed. What she describes is familiar to me. I grew up in rural Co Limerick, my father and brother were heavily involved in the GAA, but I never was given the impression that men were more important. The women in my father's family were not to be messed with, much tougher than those in my mother's family, who were of NI and English extraction.

I definitely grew up thinking that women were the important ones, the decision-makers. I never saw any pandering to men.

Minnie if younger women are being disparaged for their viewpoints on the basis of their age, I would be as quick as anyone to push back against it.
No argument is undermined by disrespecting the holder.

However, every argument is open to being debated- personally, I've had my viewpoints challenged, and I've learned from that.

Hmmmm, MarDhea, I find your post a bit misty-eyed with regard to Irish history.
I grew up in as traditional an area as you could imagine. Our neighbours literally used a horse and cart for many years after buying a car. Many neighbours had outdoor toilets, rural lifestyle, GAA, priest for Sunday dinner (not sure how many other cliches I can stuff into the sentence).
I still argue that the power of "Mammy" derives pretty much entirely from her power as the rule-enforcer.

Like you , I have lived in England (countryside and mid-London) and Ireland. There are many differences- and surprisingly many similarities.

I agree that Irish feminism needs a different approach and I loathe seeing policies that have been defined by foreign funded or foreign based organisations. I am allergic to them; and almost immediately look for ways to disagree.

Women is bitches, innit.

I’m going to Ireland soon and thinking about stickering - anyone for the links handy for the dictionary definition of woman stickers?

Minnie, that hasn't been my experience here at all.

FWR. Take a look at any thread where women who defend trans people are discussed... especially if they're young women.

Minnie, that hasn't been my experience here at all.
Do you mean FWR in particular or MN in general?

This forum is full of abuse of women generally. If they're young, for example, and don't agree with you they're 'lacking, stupid, dumb handmaidens' etc etc. The lack of self-awareness here is amazing. The standing joke among people casting the occasional eye at these forums is that the members should buy themselves a massive mirror.

I agree that the Irish mammy trope isn't anti-patriarchal (I didn't say it was), but it is nonetheless a source of matriarchal power - it is possible for there to be matriarchal counterpoints in a culture that's generally patriarchal. It may be one reason why I and other Irish pp were not socialised into deferring to men and male needs all the time.

My personal theory is that is that it's a carry-over from traditional Gaelic Ireland, where women were never as under-the-thumb as our Anglo-Saxon (and Anglo-Irish) cousins. Up until the 17th century, women in Ireland could legally hold property, instigate divorce against their husbands, qualify as doctors and lawyers, etc. Or at least they could in the majority of the country outside the Pale that maintained Gaelic law and culture. Even after that, during Ascendency rule, the ordinary people tended to keep many of the old traditions along with the Irish language, such as women keeping their own names on marriage, women maintaining control of their own money and anything they owned prior to marriage, women leaving abusive husbands and returning to their families without social censure. It was really the famine, and the disruption to social structure caused by millions dead/emigrated, that pushed these customs into the background along with the Irish language. The Irish mammy is one of the remnants.

There are huge cultural gulfs, both historically and currently, between Britain and Ireland in certain respects. I have lived in both countries and my experiences match the academic analysis. I think it's important not to view the role of women and feminism in Ireland through the lens of a different country - we have different perspectives and priorities, and need different approaches to effect change.

DuchessDumbarton
I don't understand MinnieTheSphinx?

Women is horrible transphobes

Bonkers. A link to a group of women verbally abusing one woman who disagrees with them and agitating to have her banned, and when we discuss why they might be behaving like that, we are 'abusing and patronising women who disagree'.

Black is white and white is black.

I don't understand MinnieTheSphinx?

Nice to see the usual tactic of 'abuse and patronise' being deployed here against any women that disagree with you

Except that is not what is happening. People are discussing the origins and reasons for this unquestioning support for movements that neglect or deny the female experience.

Nice to see the usual tactic of 'abuse and patronise' being deployed here against any women that disagree with you.

This is actually a really interesting case study of a society with very traditional values (male dominance, Catholic religion, nationalism) suddenly adopting very liberal values. The emphasis on faith and devotion remain, as does the deference to men and their needs, and the fact that opposing views can be ascribed to the old enemy is the icing on the cake

I think there is a lot in what you say.....small nation, liberating itself from tradition and the yoke of a larger power/old enemy...kind of thing....which is why the Scots seem to be going the same way.

Just to say thank you for the thread. I'm a quarter Irish and horribly ignorant about Ireland generally and this is so informative.

Sending solidarity

What are Nell McCafferty's thoughts on all of this?

I'm not Irish, but have had some experience of a culture where women seem ostensibly powerful and respected, but it is essentially because they are the enforcers for the Male power structure.

I had a bit of a rude awakening some months ago when I was speaking to some men of my acquaintance from that time in my life who I had naively believed were decent sorts. I had previously been treated with respect as I argued for the prolife position. As I have been slowly becoming aware of exactly how much desire to control and punish women there is in the prolife movement and began to use my reasoning against that, I was turned on by those men quicker than you could say Misogyny. I was no longer a useful enforcer for them, so I had to be an example. I dont recall specific examples, but I'm sure I will have been part of enforcing compliance on other women, as other women enforced compliance on me.

I see the same sort of dynamic going on here - the older patriarchal structure looks like it's crumbling, but the mechanisms all still remain, and the treatment of this poor woman in the FB group is emblematic of the new face of the mechanisms, I suspect.

I have a family member who was a teaching nun.
I agree - she had a unique point of view, with little deference to men.

To her face, as a "holy nun" , people listened to , and agreed with her (astoundingly liberal) points of view. She had "worked on the missions" so had real life experience of back street abortions, girls being co-opted into prostitution to feed the rest of the family etc.
So, she spoke about the need to support single mothers, safe abortion, education for women etc.

She was and is a brave lady, and I personally have a lot of time for nuns as a result.
But, it doesn't take away from the prevailing patriarchal tenor of the times.

I sit on an education type board, and had the conversation with an older man recently, where he intimated that "the nuns didn't allow" girls to study Honours Maths in the mid-to-late 80's.
What this gentleman glibly ignored was, that "the nuns" were as subject to the misogynistic rules of the church as anyone else....and every convent was under the auspice of the local bishop. The bishop's word on what subjects were taught is was law.

So, it doesn't surprise me that some posters learned not to defer to men automatically...but it doesn't mean that society was matriarchal.
It means that you were lucky to have met the vanguard of the push for change.
Liberal nuns are a powerful force (if you've ever spent time with them).

I come from a working class background as do most of my mates. I agree with you, I wasn’t brought up with deference to men. I had 2 very strong teachers for all of primary. They were fierce that the girls they thought could do anything they wanted to do & really pushed me to question well everything. Both nuns.

I'm the product of nuns as well, and agree with you that there was no deference to men.

That should be taught not thought. Doh