Expelled from Girlguiding for putting safeguarding first

I do think there is an issue of men exploiting loopholes and claiming to be trans when they aren’t

And this is precisely the reason why women are nervous about self ID.
Do you get it now? Especially around children, such as in GG.

Because we are talking about CHILDREN not some 55 year old dude who is pretending to be trans.
You can never tell who is a sexual predator or not. But this exact same argument was used against gay men and women before when they were perceived as a threat.

"Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality."

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

We're talking about GGs on this thread, yes? Why would having a penis removed be relevant for so called 'trans girls' in Guides? I mean, surely no one is suggesting children have their genitalia removed? Are they?

Because there are two issues here - guides who are transgirls being treated as girls. And also leaders who are transwomen being treated as women for safeguarding purposes (eg being allowed to do things that otherwise only women are allowed to do, such as intimate care for girls).

Then we need a definition that excludes these chancers exploiting it dont we?

So what includes women, transwoman that excludes men even when they say the "I'm a woman" thing.

I don’t believe trans women commit sexual crimes at the same rate as men.
I do think there is an issue of men exploiting loopholes and claiming to be trans when they aren’t who have already committed crime

So you believe in true trans? But you accept that the group "transwomen" as a whole, includes many male sex criminals claiming to be trans?

If so, how on earth can children be safeguarded?

If you have a system for telling which people are and are not predators by looking, please do tell, as no one on earth has managed to suss that one yet.

LangCleg I tried upthread but Butters is yet to reply:

Even consensual sex is a much greater risk to teenage girls, as it is the girls who may end up pregnant. But also, it's not ideal for the boys and transgirls either to have fathered a child as a teen. This is one of the very good reasons we keep those with bodies that can impregnate apart from those with bodies that can be impregnated. This isn't a comment on identity. This is recognising biological reality. Letting those children sleep in the same rooms is bonkers, and is putting girls' heath at risk.

I don’t believe trans women commit sexual crimes at the same rate as men.
I do think there is an issue of men exploiting loopholes and claiming to be trans when they aren’t who have already committed crime.

We're talking about GGs on this thread, yes? Why would having a penis removed be relevant for so called 'trans girls' in Guides? I mean, surely no one is suggesting children have their genitalia removed? Are they?😯

*and transphobic

(Could someone gently explain to Butters that even if they think Girl A has a vagina and Girl B has a penis is a reasonable statement to make, the safeguarding issue of consensual or non consensual sex possibly resulting in a minor pregnancy is exactly the same?)

butters

We all know what a trans woman is - someone born male who identifies as a woman. Whether they are women or not depends on your definition of women, hence why you’re being asked to define it.

For a lot of us, we believe the reason for female oppression is our sex, not our ‘gender’ and therefore do not accept that being a woman is simply about how you identify, but also has an anatomical element which trans women do not possess.

I actually am not as hardline as many on these boards in terms of accepting trans women into feminism but it is absolutely clear to me that globally women suffer despicably because of their sex, because of their anatomy - and I can’t bear people saying it is exclusionary it transphobic to want to centre feminism on it.

Butters83 if it can be proved that the group of "women" who were born male commit sex crime to the same rate as men, then please can you tell me how we can justify them being in spaces where women are vulnerable?

The question is - not are TW women, but are TW - as a class - a threat to women in the same way men are?

And if they are, then what reason on earth can you give for putting women's safety at risk?

So many of you are undermining perhaps genuine issues and queries by being ignorant to the idea that biological sex is not straightforward.

I know! Almost back to the middle ages with our understanding of human reproduction - and the associated safeguarding issues - we are around here! Shocking, it is. Shocking!

Long past time we all educated ourselves about the spegg.

Would you consider them a women if they had surgery to remove the penis?

Blimey, is it Sunday? Oh, so it is. Do they wheel out their very best convincing arguments just for the weekend, fo you think?

Yes i stopped reading when it so blatantly confused sex and gender within the first few lines

A b and c are women. A trans woman does not erase women.

You're avoiding the question about what they have in common with other women that they don't have in common with men.

Sorry re above this was to the wuestion about what links the queen and aborted girls etc the pictures did not load so presumed I was being asked to define them.

I have no idea who those people are in the pictures above although I am sure you have used people who are not actually trans as an example

butters83 that article is appalling, and conflates sex and gender.

A b and c are women. A trans woman does not erase women.

If I were born female in 1850 but from childhood had a keen interest in politics and a strong, persistent, internal sense of wanting to have a say, to influence the government by voting, maybe to run for office... would that have meant I was a transman? Interested in man things, never feeling right in the role of a woman...

What a shame this wonderful progressive ideology hadn't taken hold back then... All those privileged cis women who were lucky enough to be assigned to the right social role at birth could have been told to stfu, while the brave transmen would surely have been welcomed into the ranks of the decision-makers and power-holders. We could have avoided all that backward terf-ish 'votes for women' nonsense that treated women as if they were a definable group oppressed on the basis of their sex .