Expelled from Girlguiding for putting safeguarding first

I just want to say thank you to Katie for standing up and taking this further. I hope you're successful and I wish you well.
It's the lying and deception that really pisses me off. The complete and utter disregard for any concerns that women have.
Those on this thread that have shown their utter contempt for the safety of young girls should hang their heads in shame. They should also look at their complete disregard for the safety of any trans identifying children.
This issue is a minefield and wilfully blind people that insist that human beings can change sex are not helping at all.

FloralBunting yes I know. But bumping the thread brings it to the attention of more people (most will start with the OP).

And Butters' posts expose the illogicality of the trans activist arguments, also useful - well, for those who haven't heard them a zillion times!

3,719 is a really nice number. Just saying...

Itsnotawatercat, butters has no argument. They are on the wind up, which they admitted in the post they had withdrawn. It is truly a waste of energy and posts to engage any further with their shit.

Aaand moving on back to the subject at hand...

Ah, it's keeping the thread bumped at least. Butters has provided a good service to Katie today, keeping her thread active on the site.

Thank you Butters for helping the gender critical feminist cause today, every little helps - nice work!

If you are an organisation that has explicitly set out to challenge gender stereotypes as GG have done in the past (and currently?), why the failure to stand by your beliefs?

GG don't have to be kind to everyone - their remit is to do with girls. They are plenty of mixed sex organisations out there. If they understand why girls need their own space (and I think they did once), then stick with it. There is plenty of support for that stance.

I think it's cruel to transgirls to challenge gender stereotypes when that is their coding for being a girl. And I can well envisage a scenario where a group which contains a transgirl not going down the challenging gender expectations route to avoid difficulty so the girls miss out on valuable lessons.

And safeguarding mainly, of course, as covered by other posters.

(Not saying I believe in true trans myself, I think all TW should be treated as men for safeguarding, but Butters argument falls apart with that post).

Girls (and women), are not a collection of stereotypes. Female socialisation is something that needs to be fought. And the girl guides should be the ideal place to do it.

They should be recognising and challenging this ideology. Not bloody embracing it.

Abso-bloody-lutely, Datun.

Honestly, becoming a mother has been the most radicalising thing for me. I never appreciated Brownies as this when I was a kid. When I thought of it as a young woman thought it was old-fashioned. Now I’m a mother of DC the right age and I’m hopping fucking MAD at the idea they’d betray the ideals they espouse just so casually, and by the back door. Silencing and expelling leaders for speaking up is abominable.

If I was Butters, it'd be this post I'd be deleting.

There's no way of squaring an acceptance of the reality that predatory men pretend to be trans to get access to women and girls, and demanding that transwomen are treated as women for safeguarding purposes. It's a logical impossibility.

Aaand moving on back to the subject at hand...
Katie will you update this thread when you hear anything (that you're allowed to share!)? Do you have a timeframe?

Aw, butters thought better of their last posting, but I thought anyone tempted to continue wasting their time might like to consider their stated aim that they then had deleted.

Good for you Katie. Er I may be unable to locate the relevant bit of the unmentionable site, any hints please.

by implying a trans woman can’t be a leader JUST IN CASE is essentially implying you think all trans women are predators

Nope. You don't understand basic safeguarding.

Is not letting men share prison cells with women, in case of sexual assault, saying all men are predators?

Butters, you know that Girl Guiding allows any adult male person who merely claims to identify as a woman to become a Guide Leader, right?

So a '55 year old dude who pretends to be trans' (as you say), could be a leader and take a pack of girls away overnight. And that same 55 year old dude could share accommodation and showers with the girls. Because he claims to be a woman.

That's what the new policy allows.

And the policy states that parents of the girls should not be told that the guide leader is a 55 year old dude.

This issue aside, GG is very careful around safeguarding and Leaders receive regular training. No Leader is assumed to be safe.

There is just as much risk as a women GG leader being a predator as there is a trans woman

No. No there is not.

There are 130 women in prison for sex crimes (and many were committed with a male accomplice).

Last year, there were 60 transwomen in prison for sex crimes.

If you compare that to the populations of women, and transwomen in this country, you'll find a huge difference in how likely it is that TW are convicted sex criminals.

Very approximately - (from memory, you'll have to do the maths yourself if you want to know exact numbers)

Something like 1 in 130,000 women in the UK are sex criminals in prison
Something like 1 in 6,000 transwomen (depending on which estimate you use. This is a generous one).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

This covers leaders as well though.

So how do you ensure that a trans leader is tru trans person.

Fyi ian Huntley would have passed a dbs check so ....

How do we keep the dodgy faking leaders out?

There is just as much risk as a women GG leader being a predator as there is a trans woman - by implying a trans woman can’t be a leader JUST IN CASE is essentially implying you think all trans women are predators.

Nope, we're implying we think they are men.

by implying a trans woman can’t be a leader JUST IN CASE is essentially implying you think all trans women are predators

That’s contradictory. The fact it’s “just in case” necessarily means that not all trans women are predators. Honestly it’s such a bad argument. No one thinks all men are predators but we still segregate by sex.

The crux of the issue is whether trans women retain male pattern offending or not.

"It said that 60 of the 125 transgender inmates it counted in England and Wales were serving time for a sexual offence.
This is roughly half - but it's not the full picture.

Remember - those 125 transgender inmates only include people who have had a prison case conference. It won't include transgender people who haven't identified themselves to the prison service or who already have a gender recognition certificate.

Of the 60 serving time for sexual offences:
27 were convicted of rape (plus a further five of attempted rape)
13 were convicted of possessing, distributing or making indecent images of children
13 were convicted of sexual assault or attempted sexual assault
Nine were convicted of causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
Seven were convicted of sexual activity with a child
Seven were convicted of indecent assault or gross indecency"

Do they sound like female offences? They don't to me.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

Because we are talking about CHILDREN not some 55 year old dude who is pretending to be trans.

Are you not aware that children (vast majority, male born) sexually assault other children? The figures of sex crimes by minors on minors are large.

And yes, we are ALSO talking about some 55 year old dude pretending to be trans as this is also about guide leaders.

You can never tell who is a sexual predator or not. But this exact same argument was used against gay men and women before when they were perceived as a threat

Pretending to be gay or lesbian never got anyone access to kids to abuse. Pretending to be the opposite sex, DOES give male predators access to girls. So comparing the two situations is totally irrelevant.

Is there a script Butters is reading from?

It’s not the same thing at all butters because gay people as a class don’t pose a risk to straight people as a class.

Whereas male people as a class do pose a risk to female people as a class.

There is just as much risk as a women GG leader being a predator as there is a trans woman - by implying a trans woman can’t be a leader JUST IN CASE is essentially implying you think all trans women are predators.